How does it all stay together?

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NTheGreat

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How does it all stay together?
« on: November 20, 2008, 08:58:39 AM »
Something I have begun wondering about in the FE model is how everything stays together.

We will start with the Moon. According to the FAQ, it's 32 miles, or for simplicity's sake, 50 kilometres, across. Although there's no force of gravity under a FE model to keep it together I suppose it's possible for it to be a single large rock, held in once piece by molecular bonds. This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere. As there is no gravity to force it into a sphere, there's no reason why it should form such a shape. Perhaps, then, it cooled from a blob of liquid, as surface tension would cause it to form a sphere. But then, why does it have such an irregular cratered surface? Any kind of collisions would make such a huge sphere of rock shatter apart, and internal eruptions would spray out into space, resulting in long trails of cooled rock coming off of the moon.

Next is the sun. Observations of it suggest that it has a dynamic surface, so it must be made of liquid, as a solid would not change nearly as frequently. It would not be a gas, as it would then just dissipate, with nothing to hold it together. Of course, the sun is also in space, which seems to be a vacuum. A liquid cannot exist in a vacuum, so the sun would rapidly evaporate into a gas, and drift off into space. Perhaps then the sun is in a hollow transparent sphere made of a solid material? But it cannot be, as the Sun regularly throws out prominences and a solar wind giving rise to the Northern and Southern lights.

Lastly is the Earth. A huge sheet of fractured rock full of molten goo, much like a giant Jammie Dodger. Constantly pushed up from underneath by the FE model dark energy, pressed down unevenly on top by the weight of the continents, stirred around by whatever causes the tides, and held together with nothing beyond the surface tension of magma, as far as we are know.

Is there any explanation as to how all these things stay together in the FE model?

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IHOP

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 09:00:18 AM »
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Emir Parkreiner

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 09:02:38 AM »
This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere.
The moon is not a perfect sphere.

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NTheGreat

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 09:06:07 AM »
Quote
The moon is not a perfect sphere.

It's close enough to one to make little difference.

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ghazwozza

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 11:08:44 AM »
This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere.
The moon is not a perfect sphere.

Answer the point of the question, don't nitpick details. Whether it is a perfect sphere or slightly off makes no difference to the argument.

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zeroply

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 11:34:42 AM »
Something I have begun wondering about in the FE model is how everything stays together.

We will start with the Moon. According to the FAQ, it's 32 miles, or for simplicity's sake, 50 kilometres, across. Although there's no force of gravity under a FE model to keep it together I suppose it's possible for it to be a single large rock, held in once piece by molecular bonds. This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere. As there is no gravity to force it into a sphere, there's no reason why it should form such a shape. Perhaps, then, it cooled from a blob of liquid, as surface tension would cause it to form a sphere. But then, why does it have such an irregular cratered surface? Any kind of collisions would make such a huge sphere of rock shatter apart, and internal eruptions would spray out into space, resulting in long trails of cooled rock coming off of the moon.

Next is the sun. Observations of it suggest that it has a dynamic surface, so it must be made of liquid, as a solid would not change nearly as frequently. It would not be a gas, as it would then just dissipate, with nothing to hold it together. Of course, the sun is also in space, which seems to be a vacuum. A liquid cannot exist in a vacuum, so the sun would rapidly evaporate into a gas, and drift off into space. Perhaps then the sun is in a hollow transparent sphere made of a solid material? But it cannot be, as the Sun regularly throws out prominences and a solar wind giving rise to the Northern and Southern lights.

Lastly is the Earth. A huge sheet of fractured rock full of molten goo, much like a giant Jammie Dodger. Constantly pushed up from underneath by the FE model dark energy, pressed down unevenly on top by the weight of the continents, stirred around by whatever causes the tides, and held together with nothing beyond the surface tension of magma, as far as we are know.

Is there any explanation as to how all these things stay together in the FE model?

A sphere would be most resistant to impact. The objects that formed as say thin plates could more easily be broken apart by a large asteroid. You're not seeing all the irregular objects that have been already destroyed.

In addition, impacts might serve to round the object and take off the sharp edges. Pebbles on the beach are round, do you think they formed that way or were pushed into that shape by gravity?

Gravity is not necessary for objects to hold together. For example, Halley's comet doesn't have enough gravity under RE theory for it to hold the comet together.

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 12:04:55 PM »
Are you suggesting halley's comet is as large as the moon?  :o  ???
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

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zeroply

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 12:33:08 PM »
Are you suggesting halley's comet is as large as the moon?  :o  ???

I never said that. I am saying that celestial objects hold together for reasons other than gravity. Obviously if Halley's comet were as big as the moon, the gravity would be similar and it would not be a good counterexample.

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ASK

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 02:53:54 PM »
Something I have begun wondering about in the FE model is how everything stays together.

We will start with the Moon. According to the FAQ, it's 32 miles, or for simplicity's sake, 50 kilometres, across. Although there's no force of gravity under a FE model to keep it together I suppose it's possible for it to be a single large rock, held in once piece by molecular bonds. This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere. As there is no gravity to force it into a sphere, there's no reason why it should form such a shape. Perhaps, then, it cooled from a blob of liquid, as surface tension would cause it to form a sphere. But then, why does it have such an irregular cratered surface? Any kind of collisions would make such a huge sphere of rock shatter apart, and internal eruptions would spray out into space, resulting in long trails of cooled rock coming off of the moon.

Next is the sun. Observations of it suggest that it has a dynamic surface, so it must be made of liquid, as a solid would not change nearly as frequently. It would not be a gas, as it would then just dissipate, with nothing to hold it together. Of course, the sun is also in space, which seems to be a vacuum. A liquid cannot exist in a vacuum, so the sun would rapidly evaporate into a gas, and drift off into space. Perhaps then the sun is in a hollow transparent sphere made of a solid material? But it cannot be, as the Sun regularly throws out prominences and a solar wind giving rise to the Northern and Southern lights.

Lastly is the Earth. A huge sheet of fractured rock full of molten goo, much like a giant Jammie Dodger. Constantly pushed up from underneath by the FE model dark energy, pressed down unevenly on top by the weight of the continents, stirred around by whatever causes the tides, and held together with nothing beyond the surface tension of magma, as far as we are know.

Is there any explanation as to how all these things stay together in the FE model?

A sphere would be most resistant to impact. The objects that formed as say thin plates could more easily be broken apart by a large asteroid. You're not seeing all the irregular objects that have been already destroyed.

In addition, impacts might serve to round the object and take off the sharp edges. Pebbles on the beach are round, do you think they formed that way or were pushed into that shape by gravity?

Gravity is not necessary for objects to hold together. For example, Halley's comet doesn't have enough gravity under RE theory for it to hold the comet together.


There were irregular objects that got destroyed? How do you know that? Did you just make that up like everything else. Wouldnt the Earth get destroyed too?
I really hope this website is a joke.

If not please dont tell your kids that the earth is flat.

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zeroply

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 04:41:25 PM »
Something I have begun wondering about in the FE model is how everything stays together.

We will start with the Moon. According to the FAQ, it's 32 miles, or for simplicity's sake, 50 kilometres, across. Although there's no force of gravity under a FE model to keep it together I suppose it's possible for it to be a single large rock, held in once piece by molecular bonds. This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere. As there is no gravity to force it into a sphere, there's no reason why it should form such a shape. Perhaps, then, it cooled from a blob of liquid, as surface tension would cause it to form a sphere. But then, why does it have such an irregular cratered surface? Any kind of collisions would make such a huge sphere of rock shatter apart, and internal eruptions would spray out into space, resulting in long trails of cooled rock coming off of the moon.

Next is the sun. Observations of it suggest that it has a dynamic surface, so it must be made of liquid, as a solid would not change nearly as frequently. It would not be a gas, as it would then just dissipate, with nothing to hold it together. Of course, the sun is also in space, which seems to be a vacuum. A liquid cannot exist in a vacuum, so the sun would rapidly evaporate into a gas, and drift off into space. Perhaps then the sun is in a hollow transparent sphere made of a solid material? But it cannot be, as the Sun regularly throws out prominences and a solar wind giving rise to the Northern and Southern lights.

Lastly is the Earth. A huge sheet of fractured rock full of molten goo, much like a giant Jammie Dodger. Constantly pushed up from underneath by the FE model dark energy, pressed down unevenly on top by the weight of the continents, stirred around by whatever causes the tides, and held together with nothing beyond the surface tension of magma, as far as we are know.

Is there any explanation as to how all these things stay together in the FE model?

A sphere would be most resistant to impact. The objects that formed as say thin plates could more easily be broken apart by a large asteroid. You're not seeing all the irregular objects that have been already destroyed.

In addition, impacts might serve to round the object and take off the sharp edges. Pebbles on the beach are round, do you think they formed that way or were pushed into that shape by gravity?

Gravity is not necessary for objects to hold together. For example, Halley's comet doesn't have enough gravity under RE theory for it to hold the comet together.


There were irregular objects that got destroyed? How do you know that? Did you just make that up like everything else. Wouldnt the Earth get destroyed too?

I said there might have been irregular objects that got destroyed, so that the current sample of visible celestial bodies is not representative of a sample say two billion years ago. In the same way that most of the pebbles you see on the beach are round - they are not that way due to gravity squishing them up.

Since the Earth is much larger than the sun or moon, impacts wouldn't destroy it.

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NTheGreat

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 05:08:38 PM »
Quote
A sphere would be most resistant to impact. The objects that formed as say thin plates could more easily be broken apart by a large asteroid. You're not seeing all the irregular objects that have been already destroyed.

I would imagine that having such a large number of objects beforehand would result in a lot of debris being left over.

Quote
In addition, impacts might serve to round the object and take off the sharp edges. Pebbles on the beach are round, do you think they formed that way or were pushed into that shape by gravity?

Pebbles are formed by gentle wearing down by water or sand, rather than sudden violent collisions. Such collisions normally result in rocks breaking apart into irregular, sharp fragments. Also worthy of note is that the Moon is not smooth like a pebble. Overall it is close to a perfect sphere, but close up it does have rough surface features, suggesting it has not been smoothed by any kind of extraterrestrial flow of particles.

Quote
Gravity is not necessary for objects to hold together. For example, Halley's comet doesn't have enough gravity under RE theory for it to hold the comet together.

Halley's comet is a lot smaller than the Moon however, and also not very sphere-like.

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Edtharan

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 06:02:16 PM »
Gravity is not necessary for objects to hold together. For example, Halley's comet doesn't have enough gravity under RE theory for it to hold the comet together.
Umm, yes it does...

Under RET all mass exerts gravity. This means that event eh smallest amount of mass has gravity. As Halley's Comet is not large and does not usually pass close to a large mass (like the sun or Jupiter), then the gravitational force (tidal force) between the sides is not all that great. This means that the gravity of the comet is enough to hold it together.

If Halley's comet passed too close to a large object, say Jupiter, then it would break apart. This has indeed occurred with a different comet: Shoemaker-Levy 9. This comet passed too close to Jupiter and broke apart (and then impacted the Planet).
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Jack

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 08:06:32 PM »
Under RET all mass exerts gravity. This means that event eh smallest amount of mass has gravity.
What about objects with no mass?

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markjo

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 08:08:47 PM »
Under RET all mass exerts gravity. This means that event eh smallest amount of mass has gravity.
What about objects with no mass?
TheEngineer, is that you?
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j211shadowman

Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 10:53:50 PM »
I think Maybe the questions asked are easy to answer,cuz the earth is round,the moon is round,the sun is a star and its round,the rest of the planets are round,physics are fundamentaly correct,and this is all kinda silly,and if the earth is flat and the north pole is actually in the center,WHERE THE HELL IS ANTARCTICA? ALL THE WAY AROUND THE OUTSIDE? thats alot of friggin ice man.........

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 11:10:11 PM »
Under RET all mass exerts gravity. This means that event eh smallest amount of mass has gravity.
What about objects with no mass?

Then it would not have energy. It would be a pitiful useless particle. Even photons, the quantum of light, has a mass (though very, very small). It is theorized that the theoretical particle "graviton" might be massless since gravity seems to have unlimited range.
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2008, 11:17:38 PM »
Even photons, the quantum of light, has a mass (though very, very small).

Please learn to be consistent with your use of singular and plural terms. Also, what is the mass of a photon?
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Jack

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2008, 11:47:09 PM »
Then it would not have energy. It would be a pitiful useless particle.
Photons have energy.

Even photons, the quantum of light, has a mass (though very, very small).
How small?

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2008, 03:16:58 AM »
Sorry, my bad. I was really, really wrong there.

The photons seem to have exactly zero mass and zero energy.

But, every particle with a mass has gravity. Otherwise small dust grains would never have become small rocks, which in turn never would have become asteroids, which in turn never would have become planets. Also, heat would cause a spherical object without gravity to expand.
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 03:40:17 AM »
Sorry, my bad. I was really, really wrong there.

The photons seem to have exactly zero mass and zero energy.

But, every particle with a mass has gravity. Otherwise small dust grains would never have become small rocks, which in turn never would have become asteroids, which in turn never would have become planets. Also, heat would cause a spherical object without gravity to expand.

This is gold.
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Edtharan

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2008, 04:28:01 AM »
Sorry, my bad. I was really, really wrong there.

The photons seem to have exactly zero mass and zero energy.
Actually Photons have zero rest mass and do have energy. The energy a photon has determines it's frequency (colour).

Even photons, the quantum of light, has a mass (though very, very small).
How small?
Well according to Einstein's formula:

E2 - (pc)2 = (m0c2)2

or in the simple form that only deals with rest mass:
E=mc2
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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2008, 04:29:33 AM »
Well according to Einstein's formula:

E2 - (pc)2 = (m0c2)2

or in the simple form that only deals with rest mass:
E=mc2

And of course, we only want to deal with rest mass when talking about particles that move at the speed of light.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Edtharan

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2008, 04:32:55 AM »
Well according to Einstein's formula:

E2 - (pc)2 = (m0c2)2

or in the simple form that only deals with rest mass:
E=mc2

And of course, we only want to deal with rest mass when talking about particles that move at the speed of light.
As I sated Light does not have rest mass, so if you use the simplified formula you will get a result of 0 mass for light. But if you use the complete formula you will get a measure of mass for light. So it is true, without being contradictory or creating a hole in RET that Light has no mass, and also has mass. It depends on the frame of reference you are in.
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Parsifal

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2008, 04:35:37 AM »
As I sated Light does not have rest mass, so if you use the simplified formula you will get a result of 0 mass for light. But if you use the complete formula you will get a measure of mass for light. So it is true, without being contradictory or creating a hole in RET that Light has no mass, and also has mass. It depends on the frame of reference you are in.

Uh, no... if you use the simplified formula you will get a nonzero mass for a photon because the simplified formula is wrong. Using the complete formula gives you the correct value of zero for its rest mass.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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NTheGreat

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2008, 05:24:50 AM »
I'm fairly certain that I didn't make a topic on the properties of light...

Is there any explanation for the persistence and well formed shape of the Sun, Moon and Earth? Or is it another unknown in the FE model?

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Earthquakesdontbend

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2008, 06:20:48 AM »
There is still no explanation why the moon has not expanded. Since a baloon in vacuum expands, why would not a liquid, sphere-shaped moon expand in case there was no gravity holding it together?

How come that the sun is not expanding? The fusion reaction within the core would have caused it to explode a long time ago, but that has yet to happen.

Also, there should be a way you could prove/disprove the shape of the sun. Using a good telescope and a good solar filter (I hope you do know why), would you not be able to see whether the sun is a sphere or a spotlight?
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

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markjo

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 10:54:47 AM »
Well according to Einstein's formula:

E2 - (pc)2 = (m0c2)2

or in the simple form that only deals with rest mass:
E=mc2

And of course, we only want to deal with rest mass when talking about particles that move at the speed of light.

Then why do you guys keep bringing it up? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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ASK

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 11:08:00 AM »
Something I have begun wondering about in the FE model is how everything stays together.

We will start with the Moon. According to the FAQ, it's 32 miles, or for simplicity's sake, 50 kilometres, across. Although there's no force of gravity under a FE model to keep it together I suppose it's possible for it to be a single large rock, held in once piece by molecular bonds. This does bring up the question of why it formed a perfect sphere. As there is no gravity to force it into a sphere, there's no reason why it should form such a shape. Perhaps, then, it cooled from a blob of liquid, as surface tension would cause it to form a sphere. But then, why does it have such an irregular cratered surface? Any kind of collisions would make such a huge sphere of rock shatter apart, and internal eruptions would spray out into space, resulting in long trails of cooled rock coming off of the moon.

Next is the sun. Observations of it suggest that it has a dynamic surface, so it must be made of liquid, as a solid would not change nearly as frequently. It would not be a gas, as it would then just dissipate, with nothing to hold it together. Of course, the sun is also in space, which seems to be a vacuum. A liquid cannot exist in a vacuum, so the sun would rapidly evaporate into a gas, and drift off into space. Perhaps then the sun is in a hollow transparent sphere made of a solid material? But it cannot be, as the Sun regularly throws out prominences and a solar wind giving rise to the Northern and Southern lights.

Lastly is the Earth. A huge sheet of fractured rock full of molten goo, much like a giant Jammie Dodger. Constantly pushed up from underneath by the FE model dark energy, pressed down unevenly on top by the weight of the continents, stirred around by whatever causes the tides, and held together with nothing beyond the surface tension of magma, as far as we are know.

Is there any explanation as to how all these things stay together in the FE model?

A sphere would be most resistant to impact. The objects that formed as say thin plates could more easily be broken apart by a large asteroid. You're not seeing all the irregular objects that have been already destroyed.

In addition, impacts might serve to round the object and take off the sharp edges. Pebbles on the beach are round, do you think they formed that way or were pushed into that shape by gravity?

Gravity is not necessary for objects to hold together. For example, Halley's comet doesn't have enough gravity under RE theory for it to hold the comet together.


There were irregular objects that got destroyed? How do you know that? Did you just make that up like everything else. Wouldnt the Earth get destroyed too?

I said there might have been irregular objects that got destroyed, so that the current sample of visible celestial bodies is not representative of a sample say two billion years ago. In the same way that most of the pebbles you see on the beach are round - they are not that way due to gravity squishing them up.

Since the Earth is much larger than the sun or moon, impacts wouldn't destroy it.




Nooo read the quote. You said: "You're not seeing all the irregular objects that have been already destroyed."
I really hope this website is a joke.

If not please dont tell your kids that the earth is flat.

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Jack

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2008, 04:04:35 PM »
Even photons, the quantum of light, has a mass (though very, very small).
How small?
Well according to Einstein's formula:

E2 - (pc)2 = (m0c2)2
So, what does m0 stand for in that equation?

or in the simple form that only deals with rest mass:
E=mc2
That formula will give us the relativistic mass of a moving photon by associating it with energy (mrel = E/c2). This does not mean photons have mass; rather, we just refer to it as energy.

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Edtharan

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Re: How does it all stay together?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2008, 05:58:00 PM »
Even photons, the quantum of light, has a mass (though very, very small).
How small?
Well according to Einstein's formula:

E2 - (pc)2 = (m0c2)2
So, what does m0 stand for in that equation?
Mass where total momentum is 0.
Everyday household experimentation.