Clarification on Gravity

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divito the truthist

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Clarification on Gravity
« on: January 18, 2008, 02:08:57 PM »
Since it's such a hot topic around here, I decided to just make a thread with this information regarding gravity and gravitation.

NOTE: The outlined specifics are not part of the FE theory. This is accepted science, with both FET and RET.

Facts:

  • Gravity as a force does not exist
  • Gravity is not the same thing as gravitation
  • Gravitation is not limited to objects with mass

From TheEngineer:
 
"Gravity specifically refers to the force that Newton theorized happens between bodies with mass and is transmitted instantaneously.  This, however, is incorrect, for a few reasons.  One, gravity is not a force.  It only looks to us as one because we assume we are not accelerating, but are at rest.  However, we are undergoing a constant physical acceleration when we are in contact with the Earth, directly or otherwise.  Two, it only acts on objects with mass.  This leaves out a whole bunch of phenomenon.  Third, it violates the speed limit of the universe, the speed of light.

Gravitation, is the apparent attraction between objects.  This includes those objects that have no mass.  It also places the limit on the speed that this attraction can have, which is the speed of light.  Now, whether this attraction is due to our tendency to follow geodesics or our acceleration through space is a matter of which model you subscribe to."


And as TheEngineer has stated before on this forum, "Gravity is a pseudo force that only arises by taking a non inertial frame of reference to be inertial.  Gravitation is a consequence of the deformation of space, no force between objects necessary."

Since our FoR is non-inertial, there is no need for gravity. Gravity only needs to exist as a force in Euclidean spacetime, and since GR states that spacetime is non-Euclidean, what we feel on Earth is therefore gravitation, and not gravity. What we feel on Earth and attribute to gravity is actually gravitation and the mechanical resistance of the Earth.

Gravity and gravitation can be interchanged in everyday use. However, when dealing with science and scientific discussion (such as on this forum), they are distinct terms and should be used as such.

Here are a collection of sources backing the above position (including an e-mail I sent to a physicist):

Quote
"All fictitious forces are proportional to the mass of the object upon which they act, which is also true for gravity. This led Albert Einstein to wonder whether gravity was a fictitious force as well. He noted that a freefalling observer in a closed box would not be able to detect the force of gravity; hence, free falling reference frames are equivalent to an inertial reference frame (the equivalence principle). Following up on this insight, Einstein was able to show (after ~9 years of work) that gravity is indeed a fictitious force; the apparent acceleration is actually inertial motion in curved spacetime. This is the essential physics of Einstein's theory of general relativity." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force

Quote
"Is Gravity A Fictitious Force?

...

The strange and in some ways disturbing answer to this supposition is that the phenomenon of gravity (the fact that things fall, and have weight) is real, but the force of gravity, as described by Newton, is not a real force, but a fictitious force
[/b].[/size]"

- http://cseligman.com/text/physics/fictitious.htm

Quote
"With general relativity, Einstein managed to blur forever the distinction between real and fictitious forces. General relativity is his theory of gravity, and gravity is certainly the paradigmatic example of a "real" force. The cornerstone of Einstein's theory, however, is the proposition that gravity is itself a fictitious force (or, rather, that it is indistinguishable from a fictitious force)." - http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=ABE57453-E7F2-99DF-32538FF7C7B37F20

Quote
"You have it essentially right

[email protected] wrote:
> user_email -- [email protected]
> question -- I was just looking for some clarification of a few things in regards to gravitation.
>
> GR basically showcases that gravity as a force doesn't exist, correct?
>
> Now, as I understand it, gravity only needs to exist as a force in Euclidean spacetime, and since GR states that spacetime is non-Euclidean, what we feel on Earth is therefore gravitation, and not gravity?
>
>
>
>   

--
******************************************
F. Todd Baker
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Email: [email protected]
Phone: 706-546-xxxx
Cell: 706-714-xxxx
Web: http://www.ftoddbaker.com/
******************************************"

Quote
"This is analogous to what mass does to the structure of space-time. It causes a depression to form so that if an object  rolls toward it, it falls into the pit and is captured. (This, by the way, is how Einstein envisioned how gravity works. Mass distorts the space-time causing particles to roll toward the mass. Note that the objects follow the shape of the space-time and in this sense are following an unforced motion! That is, there is no gravitational force, objects are simply following their natural motions.)" - http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/122/lecture-2/gw.html

Quote from: Wiki on GR
One of the defining features of general relativity is the idea that gravitational 'force' is replaced by geometry. In general relativity, phenomena that in classical mechanics are ascribed to the action of the force of gravity (such as free-fall, orbital motion, and spacecraft trajectories) are taken in general relativity to represent inertial motion in a curved spacetime. So what people standing on the surface of the Earth perceive as the 'force of gravity' is a result of their undergoing a continuous physical acceleration caused by the mechanical resistance of the surface on which they are standing.[/b]

Quote from: Wiki on Non Inertial Frames of Reference
An apparent exception would seem to be the force of gravity, which is also proportional to the mass upon which it acts. Although gravity can be considered a "real" physical force for the purposes of calculations in classical mechanics, Albert Einstein showed in his theory of general relativity that gravity itself can also be considered a fictitious force. In his theory, the free-falling reference frame is equivalent to an inertial reference frame (the equivalence principle). By contrast, Einstein noted that observers standing on the Earth are experiencing an unrecognized acceleration from the normal force pushing up on their feet and, thus, are in a non-inertial (accelerated) reference frame. Further details may be found under general relativity.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 04:56:26 AM by divito the truthist »
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fshy94

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 02:24:27 PM »
Very well done, Divito. Keep this as a link.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2008, 03:55:03 PM »
I hope you don't mind Divito.  Let's see if this makes any difference.


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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 06:52:08 PM »
Stickying this was an excellent idea.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Jack

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2008, 06:56:59 PM »
I think you should make the font size in the quotes bigger so people could read better. Other than that, the thread is good.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2008, 04:38:43 AM »
Font size changed as per request. Might end up condensing or expanding in the future if need be. We shall hope this helps.
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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2008, 10:52:24 AM »
Thank you divito

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John Davis

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2008, 05:33:37 PM »
Stickying was a good idea.  We should sticky a lot of basic threads, then we can cut down on trolls and noobs.
Or even a subforum for FAQ threads
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divito the truthist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 05:47:36 AM »
I hope to soon re-do the FAQ in my own way and include this very thread's contents, much the way Trekky did it, except more accurate. That will hopefully eliminate the need for a sub-forum.
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fshy94

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 10:38:21 PM »
Actually, I just thought of something. To prevent the sure to come noob rant on physics revisionism, please note that this view of gravity is undisputed and held by RE'ees and FE'ers alike, as this is relativity.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

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divito the truthist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2008, 04:15:46 AM »
Actually, I just thought of something. To prevent the sure to come noob rant on physics revisionism, please note that this view of gravity is undisputed and held by RE'ees and FE'ers alike, as this is relativity.

I thought of that when I just got home before I saw your post. Done and done.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2008, 09:01:21 AM »
Since Jimbo still didn't seem to get the idea about gravitation despite the clarification, I've made some small adjustments.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 06:14:00 AM »
Fixed.
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fshy94

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 06:13:50 PM »
Yes, although I still would like a note explaining that gravity and gravitation are commonly interchanged in casual usage. Still.
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Loard Z

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 07:48:29 PM »
you should also be stickying Jacks "Fictitious Forces" article.
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2008, 10:54:22 PM »
Yes, although I still would like a note explaining that gravity and gravitation are commonly interchanged in casual usage. Still.

I think this is a fine point.  Perhaps we should make it clearer that any time we're speaking about gravity on this forum, we are specifically referring to Newton's force of gravity.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2008, 05:50:16 AM »
Little bit of editing, and sorry for that brain fart.

Let me know if you think it should be Roundy's suggestion or what I simply substituted as 'fact.'
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einstien

Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 12:18:00 AM »
Newtons gravity was proved wrong by einstein in 1915 with his discovery of general relativity and also if the earth gravity if just a constant speed upward then what are we moving into is space infinite and if it is how do u explain background radiation from the birth of the universe which is evident when you see static on your TV

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Loard Z

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 12:33:07 AM »
Newtons gravity was proved wrong by einstein in 1915 with his discovery of general relativity and also if the earth gravity if just a constant speed upward then what are we moving into is space infinite and if it is how do u explain background radiation from the birth of the universe which is evident when you see static on your TV

LOL?
if i remember, austria is an old, dis-used name for what is now Germany.
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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 10:15:57 AM »
I agree, LOL.

On a side note, I am quite surprised the username 'einstein' was never used till now.


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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 10:23:28 AM »
Still hasn't been, he spelt it wrong
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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 10:25:52 AM »
Ha, didn't even notice that.  Well, surprise is lost, once again... :'(


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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 10:26:58 AM »
I'll change my name to Einstein if it'll make you feel better
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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 02:23:36 PM »
background radiation from the birth of the universe which is evident when you see static on your TV

Who the hell told you that?

Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2008, 02:44:13 PM »
I've managed to find a number of mentions of the TV static thing, but none from particularly reputable sources. Figures range from 1 in 100 specks being due to CBR, to 1/3 or 1/4; which doesn't add to my confidence in the sources...

I've managed to gather that in the '60s, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson were using an antenna of a similar wavelength to TV signals when they discovered CBR (in the form of ever-present noise). It makes a more interesting story for the average person (or kid) to say they were watching TV and trying to eliminate static, so I can see why the story might spread.

As for TV static itself, I don't know enough about CBR to hypothesize about whether it might cause noticeable interference.

Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 04:09:32 PM »
You have all brought up the fact that gravity can be considered a "fictitious force" due to the fact that Einstein's theory of realitivity proved it fiction. This is not true, and Einstein never claimed to have done so. He merely explained gravity as an effect brought about by the warp in space time caused by mass. How does this prove it "fictitious"? He proved it's exsistance by explaining its cause! If I explained the force of electro-magnetism, would that prove it fictitious? It may be true that Einstein's gravity is different than Newtonian gravity, but gravity is still a force. Besides, what constitutes a force? Who are you to say gravity is not a force if you don't define the concept? If gravity is not a force, what is?
                                          Jmosk

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TheEngineer

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 05:31:51 PM »
Gravity was shown to be a fictitious force because of General Relativity.


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fshy94

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 05:52:43 PM »
You have all brought up the fact that gravity can be considered a "fictitious force" due to the fact that Einstein's theory of realitivity proved it fiction. This is not true, and Einstein never claimed to have done so. He merely explained gravity as an effect brought about by the warp in space time caused by mass. How does this prove it "fictitious"? He proved it's exsistance by explaining its cause! If I explained the force of electro-magnetism, would that prove it fictitious? It may be true that Einstein's gravity is different than Newtonian gravity, but gravity is still a force. Besides, what constitutes a force? Who are you to say gravity is not a force if you don't define the concept? If gravity is not a force, what is?
                                          Jmosk

Well, its not really, in RE and FE.

Quoth wikipedia

Quote
In GR, gravitation is not viewed as a force, but rather, objects moving freely in gravitational fields travel under their own inertia in straight lines through curved space-time – defined as the shortest space-time path between two space-time events.

It looks like one, but its not actually one.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 05:55:31 PM by fshy94 »
Proof the Earth is round!
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The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
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Germanicus

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Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2008, 05:59:54 PM »
Quote
Who the hell told you that?

Black Holes and Baby Universes by Stephen Hawking

Re: Clarification on Gravity
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2008, 09:21:54 PM »
Once again, no reasoning. Just everyone saying "Well, it just is!"