The All-Powerful TGC ~ An Analysis of "Grand Conspiracies" in Logical Debate.

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Skeptek

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I see this topic pop up in various forms throughout the site, but I'd like to begin a pure and dedicated discussion of "The place for grand conspiracies as applied to debate technique."  "Grand" means those that are alleged to be affecting all of humankind in general.  Not just RE, but most certainly including it.

This post is intended as a reference list, so I will be editing it occasionally for updates and completeness.

All the "grand" conspiracies share one defining characteristic that sets them apart from less controversial ones; saturation of influence.  Because of their scope, literally anyone can be part of it, allowing any contradicting evidence to be dismissed by the theorist as part of the conspiracy, creating an endless cycle of self support.  I've coined the term "The Talisman of the Grand Conspiracy" (the TGC) to reference this concept when used as an indisputable argument in debate.

1.  Scientific debate requires that all claims be testable in a single way acceptable to both sides.  Since the TGC cannot be tested in this way, it is not scientific; ergo, invalid in any scientific debate.

2.  To "believe" only requires acceptance, which can be based on science or not.

IF 1 AND 2, THEN...

3.  Using the TGC refers to a belief system not based in science regardless of what the user may say about the root of their belief.

This tells us that there is nothing inherently wrong with using the TGC.  The rub is when a theorist claims to be willing to participate in a scientific debate, while insisting on using the TGC.  They are mutually exclusive and cannot be claimed together.

Some debaters actually prefer to disrupt any meaningful scientific debate by injecting unscientific statements rather than restrict their arguments to the testability criteria.  Doing so suggests that one does not have any other argument and can even cause others to doubt one's veracity from that point forward.  For this disruptive type of debater, the ultimate goal is to derail any meaningful exchange, so essentially they've won.

It is this reason we must take great care to always keep the debate scientific and ignore the rest.  For this forum, the TGC (Talisman of the Grand Conspiracy) is nothing short of the third rail.  Step on it and the debate is dead on the spot.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 02:11:04 PM by Skeptek »
When do we all drink the Kool-Aid?
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(Thanks, Daniel.

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3 Tesla

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1.  Scientific debate requires that all claims be testable in a single way acceptable to both sides. 

A key word/concept here is "falsifiability" - a cornerstone of true scientific (logical positivistic) endeavour:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Tom Bishop

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The NASA Conspiracy can be falsified. Just take a space ship to the moon and look for the lunar landers.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 11:14:39 AM by Tom Bishop »

all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

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Tom Bishop

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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

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Skeptek

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Where's the moderator?

This topic is NOT about the FE conspiracy theories or to debate FE theory.  It's about the effect of the TGC on proper debate.

Diverting the subject is just a notch below using the TGC and shows an unwillingness to participate in an adult conversation.
When do we all drink the Kool-Aid?
Enjoy my posts?  Learn more here:
Not just another Flat Earth website... All are welcome.

(Thanks, Daniel.

 So, this means that  Mike Melvill, a civilian test pilot, the first man to pilot a non-governamental rocket ship that left earth's atmosphere is also part of the conspiracy?

Quote
MOJAVE, CALIFORNIA The first non-governmental rocket ship flew to the edge of space today and was piloted to a safe landing on a desert airport runway here.

Civilian test pilot, now turned astronaut Mike Melvill brought SpaceShipOne down to the Mojave Airport tarmac after flying to 100 kilometers (62 miles) in altitude, leaving the Earths atmosphere during his history-making sub-orbital space ride.

full article here http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/SS1_touchdown_040621.html

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3 Tesla

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Where's the moderator?

This topic is NOT about the FE conspiracy theories or to debate FE theory.  It's about the effect of the TGC on proper debate.

Diverting the subject is just a notch below using the TGC and shows an unwillingness to participate in an adult conversation.

A diversion at the third message?

That could be some kind of record!
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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markjo

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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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3 Tesla

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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

Does anyone else find the more terse of Tom's postings a little annoying at times?

Government contractors, because they are paid by the government, are part of 'The Grand Round Earth Conspiracy'.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Raist

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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

I'm fairly sure it would mean they are being contracted by the government. Hardly a private business.

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markjo

  • Content Nazi
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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

I'm fairly sure it would mean they are being contracted by the government. Hardly a private business.

How does having the government as a customer not make a company private?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

I'm fairly sure it would mean they are being contracted by the government. Hardly a private business.

How does having the government as a customer not make a company private?

They do not have the government as a customer, they are being contracted by the government. Have you ever worked in a shop or factory? There is a huge difference.

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markjo

  • Content Nazi
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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

I'm fairly sure it would mean they are being contracted by the government. Hardly a private business.

How does having the government as a customer not make a company private?

They do not have the government as a customer, they are being contracted by the government. Have you ever worked in a shop or factory? There is a huge difference.

When you hire a contractor to fix your roof, you are that contractor's customer just like government is the customer of a private company that supplies it with toilet paper.  The government contracts a company, it doesn't buy or control that company.  The contract is to specify the conditions that must be met in order to satisfy the customer and the associated compensation.  Nothing more.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

I'm fairly sure it would mean they are being contracted by the government. Hardly a private business.

How does having the government as a customer not make a company private?

They do not have the government as a customer, they are being contracted by the government. Have you ever worked in a shop or factory? There is a huge difference.

When you hire a contractor to fix your roof, you are that contractor's customer just like government is the customer of a private company that supplies it with toilet paper.  The government contracts a company, it doesn't buy or control that company.  The contract is to specify the conditions that must be met in order to satisfy the customer and the associated compensation.  Nothing more.

That is much different than a customer. They must meet certain conditions to fulfill the contract. In other words if they want their huge amounts of money from the government they have to do what the government specified in the contract.

Plus they aren't going to space or doing spaceflights, they are simply building.

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markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
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all private spaceflight companies are part of the conspiracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

You mean Government Contractors?

What does being a government contractor have to do with anything?

I'm fairly sure it would mean they are being contracted by the government. Hardly a private business.

How does having the government as a customer not make a company private?

They do not have the government as a customer, they are being contracted by the government. Have you ever worked in a shop or factory? There is a huge difference.

When you hire a contractor to fix your roof, you are that contractor's customer just like government is the customer of a private company that supplies it with toilet paper.  The government contracts a company, it doesn't buy or control that company.  The contract is to specify the conditions that must be met in order to satisfy the customer and the associated compensation.  Nothing more.

That is much different than a customer. They must meet certain conditions to fulfill the contract. In other words if they want their huge amounts of money from the government they have to do what the government specified in the contract.

Plus they aren't going to space or doing spaceflights, they are simply building.

How is that any different than a customer?  The building contractor must also meet the conditions to fulfill their contract.  The government is just contracting for a different product.  Government contracts just tend to be more complicated, otherwise there is no difference whatsoever. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and yet,  no one ever in its history leaked any piece of information that could prove its very existence.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 01:49:40 PM by lexotan »

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3 Tesla

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the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
Because if he died that would make him credible. You aren't some super genius that came to our site and just happens to know the truth. You are the average person, too dumb to realize the truth. You find Tom Bishop to be completely unbelievable and therefore the conspiracy lets him do whatever he wants knowing few will believe him.

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Moon squirter

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the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
Because if he died that would make him credible. You aren't some super genius that came to our site and just happens to know the truth. You are the average person, too dumb to realize the truth. You find Tom Bishop to be completely unbelievable and therefore the conspiracy lets him do whatever he wants knowing few will believe him.

In the same vain, if there is a Conspiracy, it's plausible that the powers-that-be would want the FES to exist.  This amateur society of "enthusiasts" would be viewed by most people a bunch of lunatics who invite ridicule.  This would draw people way away from even considering a FE.

It's like the UFO spotters in New Mexico.  It's quite possible that some exotic craft have been developed by the US military (with no connection to extraterrestrials), but as long as there are "space cadets" claiming to have seen alien spacecraft, the whole idea will seem crazy and most people will dismiss their claims as garbage.  The US military can then continue to work without being molested by more ordinary folk (e.g. the mainstream media).
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
Because if he died that would make him credible. You aren't some super genius that came to our site and just happens to know the truth. You are the average person, too dumb to realize the truth. You find Tom Bishop to be completely unbelievable and therefore the conspiracy lets him do whatever he wants knowing few will believe him.

If the conspiracy is so powerful as FEers claim, the conspiracy could just give cancer to him, or whatever more apropriated disease.

it would looks like a natural death.

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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
Because if he died that would make him credible. You aren't some super genius that came to our site and just happens to know the truth. You are the average person, too dumb to realize the truth. You find Tom Bishop to be completely unbelievable and therefore the conspiracy lets him do whatever he wants knowing few will believe him.

If the conspiracy is so powerful as FEers claim, the conspiracy could just give cancer to him, or whatever more apropriated disease.

it would looks like a natural death.

Yes, because having influence within the government gives you super powers such as cancer vision. You can magically mutate someone's dna because of this power.

Please stop watching so many cartoons.

the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
Because if he died that would make him credible. You aren't some super genius that came to our site and just happens to know the truth. You are the average person, too dumb to realize the truth. You find Tom Bishop to be completely unbelievable and therefore the conspiracy lets him do whatever he wants knowing few will believe him.

If the conspiracy is so powerful as FEers claim, the conspiracy could just give cancer to him, or whatever more apropriated disease.

it would looks like a natural death.

Yes, because having influence within the government gives you super powers such as cancer vision. You can magically mutate someone's dna because of this power.

Please stop watching so many cartoons.

Russia gave cancer to that spy.  ;D

There are thousand of ways to kill someone and make it looks like a accident, specially when the governement suports you.

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Lord Wilmore

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Yeah, because the Litvinenko case was really low-key and totally discredited him, not the Russians.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
the conspiracy controls all private space flight companies in the world, all telecomunication companies, google, discovery channel , etc etc etc

They  employ and control millions of people throughout the world, and no one, ever in its historu leaked anything that could prove its very existence.


And yet they allow Flat Earthers the freedom of speech to set up this web-site?

Why hasn't Tom Bishop, for example, been "bumped off" already?
Because if he died that would make him credible. You aren't some super genius that came to our site and just happens to know the truth. You are the average person, too dumb to realize the truth. You find Tom Bishop to be completely unbelievable and therefore the conspiracy lets him do whatever he wants knowing few will believe him.

If the conspiracy is so powerful as FEers claim, the conspiracy could just give cancer to him, or whatever more apropriated disease.

it would looks like a natural death.

Yes, because having influence within the government gives you super powers such as cancer vision. You can magically mutate someone's dna because of this power.

Please stop watching so many cartoons.

Russia gave cancer to that spy.  ;D

There are thousand of ways to kill someone and make it looks like a accident, specially when the governement suports you.

Lol. And the fact that you can name that as an example of it happening kind of proves that it is a shitty way to do so. Dosing someone with a radioactive element leaves behind evidence. Such as radioactivity.

car accident.. cough cough


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3 Tesla

  • 808
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car accident.. cough cough

Are you Mohammed Al Fayed?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

  • 808
  • Flat Earth double agent
In the same vain, if there is a Conspiracy, it's plausible that the powers-that-be would want the FES to exist.  This amateur society of "enthusiasts" would be viewed by most people a bunch of lunatics who invite ridicule.  This would draw people way away from even considering a FE.

So Tom Bishop could really be working *for* the government in order to discredit Flat Earth Theory with his out-landish "gear-driven star systems" and "bendy light"?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

car accident.. cough cough

Are you Mohammed Al Fayed?

No... i mean... I don't remember... I just remember some guys in black... and the light...

Anyway, I'm sure that Tom's death would be big news all over the world. i'm sure that his death would totally expose the conspiracy and that everyone would suddenly notice that the earth is flat.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 03:23:08 PM by lexotan »

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Raist

  • The Elder Ones
  • 30590
  • The cat in the Matrix
In the same vain, if there is a Conspiracy, it's plausible that the powers-that-be would want the FES to exist.  This amateur society of "enthusiasts" would be viewed by most people a bunch of lunatics who invite ridicule.  This would draw people way away from even considering a FE.

So Tom Bishop could really be working *for* the government in order to discredit Flat Earth Theory with his out-landish "gear-driven star systems" and "bendy light"?

It's possible we are from the government to discredit the flat earth theory. Perhaps we were recruited given the truth, and told to spread it. I mean on a website it would instantly be called bull, and the few believers we did get would just be enough to keep the site running.

Who knows.