GPS

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hatrox

GPS
« on: December 31, 2008, 12:25:41 PM »
So, I am new to the forum, but one question has bothered me for a while. If the Earth is flat how does the Global Positioning System work then? Your Flat Earth Theory says satellites can't be sent in orbit around the Earth so there is no such thing. However the GPS is pretty real and works beautifully.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 01:52:56 PM by hatrox »

Re: GPS
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2008, 12:44:59 PM »
So, I am new to the forum, but one question has boddered me for a while. If the Earth is flat how does the Global Positioning System work then? Your Flat Earth Theory says satellites can't be sent in orbit around the Earth so there is no such thing. However the GPS is pretty real and works beautifully.

They claim that it works through Psuedolites and Stratellites.  Stratellites are basically high altitude blimps as far as I can tell.  Problem is, it would literally take thousands to do the job of one satellite.  Psuedolites, are basically tall towers that are responsible for sending a variety of signals out, including satellite tv, radio, phone, gps, etc.

At least this is my understanding according to FET.  Hope this helps.
The Earth is Round.

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stakiman

Re: GPS
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2008, 01:27:28 PM »
So, I am new to the forum, but one question has boddered me for a while. If the Earth is flat how does the Global Positioning System work then? Your Flat Earth Theory says satellites can't be sent in orbit around the Earth so there is no such thing. However the GPS is pretty real and works beautifully.

They claim that it works through Psuedolites and Stratellites.  Stratellites are basically high altitude blimps as far as I can tell.  Problem is, it would literally take thousands to do the job of one satellite.  Psuedolites, are basically tall towers that are responsible for sending a variety of signals out, including satellite tv, radio, phone, gps, etc.

At least this is my understanding according to FET.  Hope this helps.
What kind of tall towers? Can you et an example, please? If they were there, how come nobody noticed them already? As far as I know, radio is broadcast through a few towers in each city, which are no bigger than 100 meters (tops). Same goes for TV and phone where cell phones' signal is broadcast through 2m towers located on the roofs of every few blocks. I demand more explanation, proofs and information. Thanks in advance!

Re: GPS
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2008, 02:06:00 PM »
I've never known how the FE model GPS is supposed to work. You could simulate it with ground based towers, but you would need one every 50 or so meters to get anything close to what we currently have out of them. I've no idea how a blimp based system would work.

Re: GPS
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2008, 05:39:46 PM »
So, I am new to the forum, but one question has boddered me for a while. If the Earth is flat how does the Global Positioning System work then? Your Flat Earth Theory says satellites can't be sent in orbit around the Earth so there is no such thing. However the GPS is pretty real and works beautifully.

They claim that it works through Psuedolites and Stratellites.  Stratellites are basically high altitude blimps as far as I can tell.  Problem is, it would literally take thousands to do the job of one satellite.  Psuedolites, are basically tall towers that are responsible for sending a variety of signals out, including satellite tv, radio, phone, gps, etc.

At least this is my understanding according to FET.  Hope this helps.
It couldn't be with Psudolites as you can use directional antennas and track th4e movements of the signal. As Psudeolites would not move and the signal does, they can be psudeolites.

Also, using that directional antenna, you can track the angular speed that the Stratelites are moving. Making some educated guesses as to the size these Stratelites need to be (you need a large balloon size to the payload weight for high altitude flight) and the fact that we can't see objects of that size up there (but interestingly enough we can see smaller objects the size of the satellites that NASA claims are up there), we can guess at the minimum distance (not the exact distance, just the minimum) and so work out the speed they must be travelling through the atmosphere/layer. The speeds needed to get that angular velocity would caus ea huge amount of friction which would cause them to glow hot (which would enable us to see them).

As we can't see the glow of hypersonic blimps and the signals are moving, we can rule out both Stratelites and Psudoelites.

As that only leaves satellites...  ::)
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hatrox

Re: GPS
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 02:35:45 PM »
So what you're all saying is that the FET just can't explain how does the Global Positioning System work. I think this is a pretty big hole in your theory. Isn't that a "round Earth proof" or can it be explained by the super-advanced technology making use of the flatness of the Earth, of which we know nothing about?

Re: GPS
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2009, 12:40:09 PM »
So what you're all saying is that the FET just can't explain how does the Global Positioning System work. I think this is a pretty big hole in your theory. Isn't that a "round Earth proof" or can it be explained by the super-advanced technology making use of the flatness of the Earth, of which we know nothing about?

I can only give you the same answer they gave me when I asked the question.
The Earth is Round.

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TheEngineer

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  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: GPS
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2009, 08:41:59 PM »
If the Earth is flat how does the Global Positioning System work then?
The same way it does in the RE: Speed of light, time and radio signals. 


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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MessiahOfFire

Re: GPS
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2009, 08:49:45 PM »
If the Earth is flat how does the Global Positioning System work then?
The same way it does in the RE: Speed of light, time and radio signals. 

Where are the radio signals coming from and going too?

Re: GPS
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2009, 08:55:04 PM »
I will not say anything, except quote the timelines of two modern inventions - GPS and GSM cell phone networks.

Quote
After Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was shot down in 1983 after straying into the USSR's prohibited airspace, President Ronald Reagan issued a directive making GPS freely available for civilian use as a common good, as suggested by physicist D. Fanelli a few years before.

GPS
Quote
Timeline
  • In 1972, the US Air Force Central Inertial Guidance Test Facility (Holloman AFB) conducted developmental flight tests of two prototype GPS receivers over White Sands Missile Range, using ground-based pseudo-satellites.
  • In 1978 the first experimental Block-I GPS satellite was launched.
  • In 1983, after Soviet interceptor aircraft shot down the civilian airliner KAL 007 that strayed into prohibited airspace due to navigational errors, killing all 269 people on board, U.S. President Ronald Reagan announced that the GPS would be made available for civilian uses once it was completed.
  • By 1985, ten more experimental Block-I satellites had been launched to validate the concept.
  • On February 14, 1989, the first modern Block-II satellite was launched.
  • In 1992, the 2nd Space Wing, which originally managed the system, was de-activated and replaced by the 50th Space Wing.
  • By December 1993 the GPS achieved initial operational capability.
  • By January 17, 1994 a complete constellation of 24 satellites was in orbit.
  • Full Operational Capability was declared by NAVSTAR in April 1995.
  • In 1996, recognizing the importance of GPS to civilian users as well as military users, U.S. President Bill Clinton issued a policy directive declaring GPS to be a dual-use system and establishing an Interagency GPS Executive Board to manage it as a national asset.
  • In 1998, U.S. Vice President Al Gore announced plans to upgrade GPS with two new civilian signals for enhanced user accuracy and reliability, particularly with respect to aviation safety.
  • On May 2, 2000 "Selective Availability" was discontinued as a result of the 1996 executive order, allowing users to receive a non-degraded signal globally.
  • In 2004, the United States Government signed a historic agreement with the European Community establishing cooperation related to GPS and Europe's planned Galileo system.
  • In 2004, U.S. President George W. Bush updated the national policy, replacing the executive board with the National Space-Based Positioning, Navigation, and Timing Executive Committee.
  • November 2004, QUALCOMM announced successful tests of Assisted-GPS for mobile phones.
  • In 2005, the first modernized GPS satellite was launched and began transmitting a second civilian signal (L2C) for enhanced user performance.
  • On September 14, 2007, the aging mainframe-based Ground Segment Control System was transitioned to the new Architecture Evolution Plan.
  • The most recent launch was on March 15, 2008. The oldest GPS satellite still in operation was launched on November 26, 1990, and became operational on December 10, 1990.

GSM
Quote
History
In 1982, the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations (CEPT) created the Groupe Sp?cial Mobile (GSM) to develop a standard for a mobile telephone system that could be used across Europe. In 1987, a memorandum of understanding was signed by 13 countries to develop a common cellular telephone system across Europe. Finally the system created by SINTEF lead by Torleiv Maseng was selected.

In 1989, GSM responsibility was transferred to the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) and phase I of the GSM specifications were published in 1990. The first GSM network was launched in 1991 by Radiolinja in Finland with joint technical infrastructure maintenance from Ericsson. By the end of 1993, over a million subscribers were using GSM phone networks being operated by 70 carriers across 48 countries.

All these quotes were taken from the corresponding Wikipedia articles.
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MessiahOfFire

Re: GPS
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »
I will not say anything, except quote the timelines of two modern inventions - GPS and GSM cell phone networks.

Quote
After Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was shot down in 1983 after straying into the USSR's prohibited airspace, President Ronald Reagan issued a directive making GPS freely available for civilian use as a common good, as suggested by physicist D. Fanelli a few years before.

GPS
Quote
Timeline
  • In 1972, the US Air Force Central Inertial Guidance Test Facility (Holloman AFB) conducted developmental flight tests of two prototype GPS receivers over White Sands Missile Range, using ground-based pseudo-satellites.
  • In 1978 the first experimental Block-I GPS satellite was launched.
  • In 1983, after Soviet interceptor aircraft shot down the civilian airliner KAL 007 that strayed into prohibited airspace due to navigational errors, killing all 269 people on board, U.S. President Ronald Reagan announced that the GPS would be made available for civilian uses once it was completed.
  • By 1985, ten more experimental Block-I satellites had been launched to validate the concept.
  • On February 14, 1989, the first modern Block-II satellite was launched.
  • In 1992, the 2nd Space Wing, which originally managed the system, was de-activated and replaced by the 50th Space Wing.
  • By December 1993 the GPS achieved initial operational capability.
  • By January 17, 1994 a complete constellation of 24 satellites was in orbit.
  • Full Operational Capability was declared by NAVSTAR in April 1995.
  • In 1996, recognizing the importance of GPS to civilian users as well as military users, U.S. President Bill Clinton issued a policy directive declaring GPS to be a dual-use system and establishing an Interagency GPS Executive Board to manage it as a national asset.
  • In 1998, U.S. Vice President Al Gore announced plans to upgrade GPS with two new civilian signals for enhanced user accuracy and reliability, particularly with respect to aviation safety.
  • On May 2, 2000 "Selective Availability" was discontinued as a result of the 1996 executive order, allowing users to receive a non-degraded signal globally.
  • In 2004, the United States Government signed a historic agreement with the European Community establishing cooperation related to GPS and Europe's planned Galileo system.
  • In 2004, U.S. President George W. Bush updated the national policy, replacing the executive board with the National Space-Based Positioning, Navigation, and Timing Executive Committee.
  • November 2004, QUALCOMM announced successful tests of Assisted-GPS for mobile phones.
  • In 2005, the first modernized GPS satellite was launched and began transmitting a second civilian signal (L2C) for enhanced user performance.
  • On September 14, 2007, the aging mainframe-based Ground Segment Control System was transitioned to the new Architecture Evolution Plan.
  • The most recent launch was on March 15, 2008. The oldest GPS satellite still in operation was launched on November 26, 1990, and became operational on December 10, 1990.

GSM
Quote
History
In 1982, the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations (CEPT) created the Groupe Sp?cial Mobile (GSM) to develop a standard for a mobile telephone system that could be used across Europe. In 1987, a memorandum of understanding was signed by 13 countries to develop a common cellular telephone system across Europe. Finally the system created by SINTEF lead by Torleiv Maseng was selected.

In 1989, GSM responsibility was transferred to the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) and phase I of the GSM specifications were published in 1990. The first GSM network was launched in 1991 by Radiolinja in Finland with joint technical infrastructure maintenance from Ericsson. By the end of 1993, over a million subscribers were using GSM phone networks being operated by 70 carriers across 48 countries.

All these quotes were taken from the corresponding Wikipedia articles.

What's your point?

Re: GPS
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2009, 09:01:43 PM »
It is quite possible to perform quite a precise localization within a GSM network.
Your mother.

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MessiahOfFire

Re: GPS
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 09:05:09 PM »
Still don't get your point.

In your own quotation of WIKI, they launched a GPS satellite. I guess FE fails again.

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TheEngineer

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  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: GPS
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 09:33:05 PM »
Where are the radio signals coming from and going too?
From: Transmitter
To: Receiver


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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MessiahOfFire

Re: GPS
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2009, 09:43:05 PM »
Where are the radio signals coming from and going too?
From: Transmitter
To: Receiver

Do you personally believe you do not need satellites for GPS to work?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: GPS
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2009, 05:08:20 AM »
Do you personally believe you do not need satellites for GPS to work?

Considering that GPS started out as tower-based, I'd say no.

Look up the LORAN System.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 05:11:46 AM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2009, 06:47:05 AM »
Do you personally believe you do not need satellites for GPS to work?

Considering that GPS started out as tower-based, I'd say no.

Look up the LORAN System.

LORAN is not GPS.  Look at the coverage of LORAN vs GPS.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: GPS
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2009, 06:51:59 AM »
Do you personally believe you do not need satellites for GPS to work?

Considering that GPS started out as tower-based, I'd say no.

Look up the LORAN System.

LORAN is not GPS.  Look at the coverage of LORAN vs GPS.
And, of course, you measured the coverage of GPS.
Your mother.

Re: GPS
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2009, 08:15:14 AM »
The problem is not how a GPS could possibly work, as such a thing is possible (although I would imagine rather difficult) on a FE model. It's how the GPS could possibly work on a FE. The transmitters transmit orbital information, and I really don't see how you can fake it with a bunch of static towers or blimps/stratllites/pesudollites. You could get the timings right so that you would receive the correct position in a certain place, but moving a little off of that position would render the position the receiver derives incorrect.

Re: GPS
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 08:29:44 AM »
The problem is not how a GPS could possibly work, as such a thing is possible (although I would imagine rather difficult) on a FE model. It's how the GPS could possibly work on a FE. The transmitters transmit orbital information, and I really don't see how you can fake it with a bunch of static towers or blimps/stratllites/pesudollites. You could get the timings right so that you would receive the correct position in a certain place, but moving a little off of that position would render the position the receiver derives incorrect.

WHAT?
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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 10:21:39 AM »
Do you personally believe you do not need satellites for GPS to work?

Considering that GPS started out as tower-based, I'd say no.

Look up the LORAN System.

LORAN is not GPS.  Look at the coverage of LORAN vs GPS.
And, of course, you measured the coverage of GPS.
Although I haven't personally confirmed it, GPS is said to work in Antarctica while LORAN does not.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: GPS
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2009, 11:03:53 AM »
Quote
WHAT?

The transmitters transmit orbital characteristics(along with other odds and ends), and leave it to the receiver to work out where it is from that. They must be transmitting false information, as the FE model can't really have satellites in medium Earth orbit, and even if they could the receivers would still be trying to place you relative to a RE. I've never seen, nor been able to think of any explanation as to how the transmitters manage to fool receivers across the globe without making themselves an obvious presence.

Re: GPS
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2009, 11:47:10 AM »
Quote
WHAT?

The transmitters transmit orbital characteristics(along with other odds and ends), and leave it to the receiver to work out where it is from that. They must be transmitting false information, as the FE model can't really have satellites in medium Earth orbit, and even if they could the receivers would still be trying to place you relative to a RE. I've never seen, nor been able to think of any explanation as to how the transmitters manage to fool receivers across the globe without making themselves an obvious presence.

You don't work as a GPS programmer.
Your mother.

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2009, 12:02:23 PM »
Quote
WHAT?

The transmitters transmit orbital characteristics(along with other odds and ends), and leave it to the receiver to work out where it is from that. They must be transmitting false information, as the FE model can't really have satellites in medium Earth orbit, and even if they could the receivers would still be trying to place you relative to a RE. I've never seen, nor been able to think of any explanation as to how the transmitters manage to fool receivers across the globe without making themselves an obvious presence.

You don't work as a GPS programmer.

Well, it's not like the GPS signal data format is a secret or anything.
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: GPS
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2009, 12:04:32 PM »
Quote
WHAT?

The transmitters transmit orbital characteristics(along with other odds and ends), and leave it to the receiver to work out where it is from that. They must be transmitting false information, as the FE model can't really have satellites in medium Earth orbit, and even if they could the receivers would still be trying to place you relative to a RE. I've never seen, nor been able to think of any explanation as to how the transmitters manage to fool receivers across the globe without making themselves an obvious presence.

You don't work as a GPS programmer.

Well, it's not like the GPS signal data format is a secret or anything.
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

This does not prove anything.
Your mother.

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2009, 12:21:21 PM »
Well, since we are constantly being bombarded by GPS signals, you can just get yourself a receiver and analyze the signal yourself to see if it matches the public specification.  Again, it's not a secret.  That is unless you think that the conspiracy is devious enough to hide such a secret in plain sight (so to speak).
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: GPS
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2009, 01:14:00 PM »
Well, since we are constantly being bombarded by GPS signals, you can just get yourself a receiver and analyze the signal yourself to see if it matches the public specification.  Again, it's not a secret.  That is unless you think that the conspiracy is devious enough to hide such a secret in plain sight (so to speak).
Why don't you do that and tell me what happens.
Your mother.

Re: GPS
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2009, 03:17:52 PM »
Quote
You don't work as a GPS programmer.

And? You don't need to work as a pilot to understand and observe how a plane works.

I still haven't seen any kind of explanation as to how the signal can be faked here.

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TheEngineer

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  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: GPS
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2009, 05:18:16 PM »
Do you personally believe you do not need satellites for GPS to work?
You absolutely do not need satellites for GPS to work.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2009, 05:34:05 PM »
Well, since we are constantly being bombarded by GPS signals, you can just get yourself a receiver and analyze the signal yourself to see if it matches the public specification.  Again, it's not a secret.  That is unless you think that the conspiracy is devious enough to hide such a secret in plain sight (so to speak).
Why don't you do that and tell me what happens.
Because I might lie to you.  Who knows, I may just be an agent of the conspiracy.  However, if you do it for yourself, then you won't have to take my word for it.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.