How open are FErs??

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with Newton. The force is the change in momentum. But your argument is essentially circular reasoning. A force is applied which causes acceleration, and that therefore gives the force applied, which causes accel.... Somehow, mysteriously, you have the earth accelerating constantly. Wow.

See previous. You're working with circular logic here.

If F= m.a and a=F/m what is a?

I take it from this you have figures for the mass of the earth, moon and other bodies in the solar system?

Huh? How can other massive bodies exert significant levels of gravitation?

You've already said that Newtonian gravitation doesn't apply:

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The FE doesn't even have a gravitational field.

And photons are unaffected by the Dark Energy, as you say.

GR as an extention of Newton would require the equivelent of a gravitational field (ie distortion of spacetime by mass and energy)

I wouldn't have raised gravitational lensing if I was you. Best to knock this one up to conspiracy. Here I'll help: "Have you actually seen, with your own eyes, gravitational lensing?!" There.

Of course the next question is, if all matter is affected by the DE, and I'm made of matter, what's the force that's pulling me to earth?

But you just made that up.

I want you to derive it using the circular equations, the equations you're using as your definition of DE. Pretty hard, huh?

They should be your concern if your wonko science can't hold them up in the sky.

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FE != other celestial bodies.

Requires divine intervention. In this FE world only God can discern to which bodies the laws of phsyics apply.

Yes. You keep saying that. How? If you invoke GR then you must apply the spacetime distortion caused by mass to the FE. This would contradict your claim that there is no gravity as such:

Quote from: E.Jack

The FE doesn't even have a gravitational field.

Maybe divine intervention can help again?

I'm not sure you answered my question. Am I affected by "Dark Energy" or not?

Because you can't derive it. You only inverse Newtons second, and then say "Ta da!". As I've already said, having a force which is derived from an acceleration which is derived from a force which is... is circular.

Ah the switcheroo. No it's your error. I'm pointing out your errors. You. error.

OK so we're reliant on the divine selecting which objects in the universe receive "gravity".

So the DE Field applies a force to the base of the earth, yet there's this, dare I say it, "divine" shield surrounding the earth, then the DE reaches around the shield to apply itself to all other matter. More evidence of the Lords good work!

You mean like the divine shield of the Van Allen Belt's, I'm sure? It just happens to wrap around the earth at the right distance making life possible -- superb!

And you still failed to pull 9.8m/s2 out of your circular equations. Hmm.

You do realise that divine intervention is largely incompatible with science right? Something as grossly evident as this should be shouted from the top of every steeple in the land.

Oh wait... *(looks at picture)*

So the DE Field applies a force to the base of the earth, yet there's this, dare I say it, "divine" shield surrounding the earth, then the DE reaches around the shield to apply itself to all other matter. More evidence of the Lords good work!

We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s^-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.

Quote from: Osama  bin Laden on October 17, 2008, 02:32:37 PM

We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s^-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.

Nope. You need to derive it. It lends credence to your work. Under Newton, there's a way to derive the Force of gravity at the earths surface because we have both

F = m.a
and F = G.m₁.m₂ /r²

Pretty easy:

m1.a = G.m₁.m₂ /r²

a = G.m₂ /r²

If

G = 6.673 x 10^-11
m₂ = 5.9742*10²⁴
r = 6.378*10⁶

Then holy cow! a = 9.8m.s^-2

Verified as true!

If you can produce an equation which equals Newton's Law of Gravitation, then we might start moving.

The problem for FE'ers is that these equations still (largely) hold.

We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s^-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.

This is what I observe. Newton and Einstein explain it very well.

Everything you've written since page 2 has required divine intervention. Some magical force must intervene and intelligently select which objects are subjected to the DE and which aren't.

I did read the caption, and laughed. It's so contradictory. Under the diagrams proposal sustained space flight would be possible since all one needs to do is escape the atmolayer, and get into the area where the DE (Field) would apply. This contradicts what the caption says.

I'd guess (looking at your sketch) the best place to launch a satellite from would be in the southern hemisphere where there's not much atmolayer/bowshock/DEF to punch through.

But simply stating (or is it stealing) F=m.a says nothing about the universe about us. E.Jack got quite prickly when I asked for details on heavenly bodies (sun moon etc).

He said: "The mass of the celestial bodies are not my concern." Hmm I wonder why?

Once again I'll reiterate that you're simply inverting Newtons second to produce a null result.

What defines the Force of gravity? F=m.a
What defines our acceleration? a=F/m

Round and round we go...

Haha, another appeal to ignorance. Bravo!

Quote from: goldstein on October 19, 2008, 11:04:11 AM

Haha, another appeal to ignorance. Bravo!

Please stop using this phrase.  You don't understand what it means.

You really are incapable of understanding that this is a null hypothesis aren't you?

Here let me try.

F = 63*m.a
a = F/63*m

Wheee! This is fun.

You've created a wonko shield which allows us to feel a downward force yet allows heavenly bodies to remain floating abover us. Were an object able to escape the wonko shield it would recieve the full force of the "DE" and would no longer need to provide its own propulsion. Simple.

DEF is a bow shock that shields us from the accelerating effects of DE, so we don't float when we leave the Earth's surface.

Dark Energy, great.  I assume that goldstein was just being an asshole.

Quote from: goldstein on October 16, 2008, 04:08:04 AM

If the earth were flat, and Newton's laws were applicable the moon (a mere 3000 miles away) would crash down to earth, probably in a matter of minutes. Then the sun. Swiftly followed no doubt by the rest of the heavenly bodies.

Based on Newton's first law, an object accelerate only if it is applied by a force. DE exerts a force on Earth, causing it to accelerate. DE exerts a force on the moons and sun, causing them to accelerate at an equivalent rate relative to Earth. Based on the formula from Newton's second law, force is inversely proportional to mass, so the smaller objects experience smaller force from DE: DE accelerates all objects in the universe at 9.8m/s². They won't collide in any way. Based on Newton's third law, DE exerts a force on FE, and the FE exerts an equivalent reaction force back on DE.  Newton's laws surely are compatible to FE to me.

Oh, you still ignored these:

Quote from: E.Jack on October 15, 2008, 09:52:21 PM

Newton's three laws:

1st: When I'm "free-falling" in FE under no fluidity, no force is acting on me. Thus, I'm undergoing inertial motion. Fluid exerts the drag force on me, causing me to accelerate slightly up; therefore, I'm no longer undergoing inertial motion in my inertial frame of reference.
2nd: Relative to an inertial observer, the FE surely is accelerating while having mass and momentum with respect to time. Thus, the FE has a net force.
3rd: DE exerts a force on FE, and the FE exerts an equivalent reaction force back on FE. I exert a force on a brick wall in FE, and the brick wall exerts an equivalent reaction force back on me.

The equivalence between free-fall and inertial motion:

When I jump out of a plane in FE under no fluidity, I undergo inertial motion. That's free-fall in FE.

The equivalence between proper acceleration and gravity:

Proper acceleration is something we feel. Thus, while standing on the surface of FE, we undergo proper acceleration because the FE exerts an upward force on us. We perceive that as "gravity".

The laws work on FE. Deal with it.

WHAT THE HELL IS DARK ENERGY?

and where did it come from?

is it something that resulted from the big bang?  (damn, that's a lousy name for the creation of a universe)

does it keep the moon and sun and all moving upward too? and wher is "up"?

how do you decide up or down in space? or maybe you can if the earth is flat and you compare everything relative to the position of the earth.

and further explaination as how to how newton's law work on fe?

what makes acceleration "proper?"

I would expect a space shuttle to be more massive than its equivelent volume of "atmolayer".

Or is the whole of the atmosphere able to muscle up to any little thing trying to escape?

It's your guff, you tell me. *shrugs*

What concerns me is that the DEF now seems to perform two roles. Firstly it's (somehow, magically) countering the effect of the DE, so that the earth is accelerated but not objects on it.

An interesting, if unobserved, phenomenon.

But then the DEF is acting as a glass ceiling, no longer preventing the DE from applying but now preventing matter from escaping its field. *boink!*

This dual and seemingly contradictory functionality is unresolved.

Since there's nothing but woolly conjecture and circular logic about both the DE and the DEF, it would be rude of me to expect some kind of proof for all this.

The caption in the picture says that anything equally or less massive than the atmolayer cannot escape the DEF. Thus, space-flight is not possible.

So the DEF affects both the DE and matter contained within the DE. Bizarre! Or is it "wonko"?

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Proof:
-Things don't float.

Someone want to sig. that? It's gold-plated, diamond-tipped, Tom-Bishop-endorsed horse twaddle for whoever wants it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the FE itself is more massive than the atmolayer.  So, what keeps the FE from escaping the the DEF?