# How open are FErs??

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#### Jack

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2008, 07:22:09 AM »
Yes, I'm not disagreeing with Newton. The force is the change in momentum. But your argument is essentially circular reasoning. A force is applied which causes acceleration, and that therefore gives the force applied, which causes accel.... Somehow, mysteriously, you have the earth accelerating constantly. Wow.
DE exerts a force on FE, causing it to accelerate.

Catching up now?

See previous. You're working with circular logic here.

If F= m.a and a=F/m what is a?
9.8m/s2.

I take it from this you have figures for the mass of the earth, moon and other bodies in the solar system?
The mass of the celestial bodies are not my concern. I'm concerning that the laws do work on FE, but you're just too slow to realize that.

Huh? How can other massive bodies exert significant levels of gravitation?

You've already said that Newtonian gravitation doesn't apply:

Quote
The FE doesn't even have a gravitational field.
FE != other celestial bodies.

And photons are unaffected by the Dark Energy, as you say.

GR as an extention of Newton would require the equivelent of a gravitational field (ie distortion of spacetime by mass and energy)

I wouldn't have raised gravitational lensing if I was you. Best to knock this one up to conspiracy. Here I'll help: "Have you actually seen, with your own eyes, gravitational lensing?!" There.
Light from far distances is bend around a massive celestial body in front of the FE.

Of course the next question is, if all matter is affected by the DE, and I'm made of matter, what's the force that's pulling me to earth?
Just as GR stated, there's no force pulling you to Earth. The Earth accelerates towards you.

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2008, 10:18:05 AM »
But you just made that up.

I want you to derive it using the circular equations, the equations you're using as your definition of DE. Pretty hard, huh?
How is the upward acceleration from DE "made up" when it is completely coherent to the perceived effects of gravitation in my FoR?

They should be your concern if your wonko science can't hold them up in the sky.
Right.

Quote
FE != other celestial bodies.
Requires divine intervention. In this FE world only God can discern to which bodies the laws of phsyics apply.

Yes. You keep saying that. How? If you invoke GR then you must apply the spacetime distortion caused by mass to the FE. This would contradict your claim that there is no gravity as such:

Quote from: E.Jack
The FE doesn't even have a gravitational field.

Maybe divine intervention can help again?
Wonko logic. Just because FE doesn't have gravitation doesn't mean gravitational lensing is non-existent in the universe.

I'm not sure you answered my question. Am I affected by "Dark Energy" or not?
No.

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2008, 10:30:25 AM »
Because you can't derive it. You only inverse Newtons second, and then say "Ta da!". As I've already said, having a force which is derived from an acceleration which is derived from a force which is... is circular.
What.The.Hell.

Ah the switcheroo. No it's your error. I'm pointing out your errors. You. error.
You failed to point out any errors in the "FE != other celestial bodies".

OK so we're reliant on the divine selecting which objects in the universe receive "gravity".
Uh, ok.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 02:55:09 PM by Jack »

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2008, 02:32:37 PM »
We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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#### sabrem

• 11
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2008, 03:28:04 PM »
Just a quick question in line with the orignal post.

Lets say a plane could fly indifently...like in the case of air force jets refueling in midair. And lets say in stead of flying around the earth West/east like people keep bringing up (which FEers point out since the north pole is in the middle, is still possible to keep going west and go in a circle on a Flat Earth) if it flew north south. Starting say at the north pole and flying South and ending back at the north pole nonstop. If you were on that plane in the cockpit so you could see the instruments and everything, would that change your mind about the FE theory?

#### Ski

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2008, 03:28:58 PM »
Quote from: Goldilocks

So the DE Field applies a force to the base of the earth, yet there's this, dare I say it, "divine" shield surrounding the earth, then the DE reaches around the shield to apply itself to all other matter. More evidence of the Lords good work!

You mean like the divine shield of the Van Allen Belt's, I'm sure? It just happens to wrap around the earth at the right distance making life possible -- superb!

Of course, I have no theological problem with this, but perhaps you might?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

#### Euclid

• 943
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2008, 03:47:44 PM »
Quote
You mean like the divine shield of the Van Allen Belt's, I'm sure? It just happens to wrap around the earth at the right distance making life possible -- superb!

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.

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#### The Terror

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2008, 03:52:57 PM »
You fool, everybody knows that facts are curved like a boomerang.

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2008, 09:13:08 PM »
And you still failed to pull 9.8m/s2 out of your circular equations. Hmm.
So when I drop a ball in my FoR, it is no longer accelerating down at 9.8m/s2 according to Newton's theory (or me accelerating up at 9.8m/s2 according to Einstein's theory)?

You do realise that divine intervention is largely incompatible with science right? Something as grossly evident as this should be shouted from the top of every steeple in the land.
Except the things I've just explained since page 2 have nothing to do with divine intervention.

Oh wait... *(looks at picture)*

So the DE Field applies a force to the base of the earth, yet there's this, dare I say it, "divine" shield surrounding the earth, then the DE reaches around the shield to apply itself to all other matter. More evidence of the Lords good work!
Way to ignore the caption in my picture.

We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.
QFT. That's what I've been trying to explain to Goldy in what, 2 pages?

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2008, 05:00:44 AM »
We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.

Nope. You need to derive it. It lends credence to your work. Under Newton, there's a way to derive the Force of gravity at the earths surface because we have both

F = m.a
and F = G.m1.m2 /r2

Pretty easy:

m1.a = G.m1.m2 /r2

a = G.m2 /r2

If

G = 6.673 x 10-11
m2 = 5.9742*1024
r = 6.378*106

Then holy cow! a = 9.8m.s-2

Verified as true!

If you can produce an equation which equals Newton's Law of Gravitation, then we might start moving.

And just how do you think the values of the gravitational constant and the mass of the Earth were measured in the first place, if not by empirical observation of the Earth's gravitational influence on other objects?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2008, 05:13:53 AM »
The problem for FE'ers is that these equations still (largely) hold.

So does F=ma for a Flat Earth.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

#### markjo

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2008, 08:49:20 AM »
We don't need to derive the value g = 9.8 m s-2, it's an empirical observation which can be used to calculate the force applied to us by Dark Energy.

How much of that 9.8m/s2 is caused by the FE's own gravitational field (caused by the mass of the FE according to GR), how much is caused by the UA, how much is neutralized by the DE and how much of an effect is caused by the sun, moon, other celestial bodies and the the sub-heavens?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2008, 08:28:26 PM »
This is what I observe. Newton and Einstein explain it very well.
Therefore, 9.8m/s2, the upward acceleration from DE, is not made up.

Everything you've written since page 2 has required divine intervention. Some magical force must intervene and intelligently select which objects are subjected to the DE and which aren't.
Nope.

I did read the caption, and laughed. It's so contradictory. Under the diagrams proposal sustained space flight would be possible since all one needs to do is escape the atmolayer, and get into the area where the DE (Field) would apply. This contradicts what the caption says.
No, you did not read it. As stated in the caption, direct or sustain space-flight is not possible due to the DEF (not DE). No contradiction.

I'd guess (looking at your sketch) the best place to launch a satellite from would be in the southern hemisphere where there's not much atmolayer/bowshock/DEF to punch through.
Still can't.

But simply stating (or is it stealing) F=m.a says nothing about the universe about us. E.Jack got quite prickly when I asked for details on heavenly bodies (sun moon etc).
Right, stealing, when it is completely compatible with FE.

He said: "The mass of the celestial bodies are not my concern." Hmm I wonder why?
I don't the see the point of discussing things that are off-topic. We're talking about why the laws are compatible with FE, remember?

Of course, they are.

Once again I'll reiterate that you're simply inverting Newtons second to produce a null result.

What defines the Force of gravity? F=m.a
What defines our acceleration? a=F/m

Round and round we go...
What defines the force from DE? F=ma
What defines a celestial body's acceleration from DE? a=F/m

Flat and flat we go...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 08:14:22 AM by E.Jack »

#### Parsifal

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2008, 10:51:08 AM »
The force causes our acceleration. However, we cannot measure it directly, so we have to calculate it from the acceleration we observe. If we couldn't base scientific measurements on indirect observations, our knowledge of the world would be very limited.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

#### Roundy the Truthinessist

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2008, 06:07:17 PM »

Haha, another appeal to ignorance. Bravo!

Please stop using this phrase.  You don't understand what it means.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

#### Ski

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2008, 06:12:59 PM »

Haha, another appeal to ignorance. Bravo!

Please stop using this phrase.  You don't understand what it means.

Thank you.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2008, 07:20:04 PM »
You really are incapable of understanding that this is a null hypothesis aren't you?

Here let me try.

F = 63*m.a
a = F/63*m

Wheee! This is fun.

You've created a wonko shield which allows us to feel a downward force yet allows heavenly bodies to remain floating abover us. Were an object able to escape the wonko shield it would recieve the full force of the "DE" and would no longer need to provide its own propulsion. Simple.
So you still didn't read it.

DEF doesn't provide us a downward force; it is not gravity. DEF is a bow shock that shields us from the accelerating effects of DE, so we don't float when we leave the Earth's surface. The heavenly bodies are above the DEF, and thus are accelerated by DE. This keeps the sun and the moon above the Earth at all times.

#### Jack

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2008, 07:20:38 AM »
DEF is a bow shock that shields us from the accelerating effects of DE, so we don't float when we leave the Earth's surface.

#### Jack

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2008, 08:42:35 AM »

#### Vauxhall

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• dark matter does not exist
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2008, 09:07:49 AM »
bendy light

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#### g.g.

• 24
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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2008, 05:55:12 PM »
Dark Energy, great.  I assume that goldstein was just being an asshole.

goldstein is not an asshole! he is the purveyor of truth! there must be a copy of the book for you to read somewhere! then you'd know that war is peace, ignorance is strength (cough), freedom is slavery, and 2+2 really does equal 4!!!
“Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too”
-Voltaire

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#### g.g.

• 24
• phases of the moon
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2008, 06:16:46 PM »
If the earth were flat, and Newton's laws were applicable the moon (a mere 3000 miles away) would crash down to earth, probably in a matter of minutes. Then the sun. Swiftly followed no doubt by the rest of the heavenly bodies.

Based on Newton's first law, an object accelerate only if it is applied by a force. DE exerts a force on Earth, causing it to accelerate. DE exerts a force on the moons and sun, causing them to accelerate at an equivalent rate relative to Earth. Based on the formula from Newton's second law, force is inversely proportional to mass, so the smaller objects experience smaller force from DE: DE accelerates all objects in the universe at 9.8m/s2. They won't collide in any way. Based on Newton's third law, DE exerts a force on FE, and the FE exerts an equivalent reaction force back on DE.  Newton's laws surely are compatible to FE to me.

Oh, you still ignored these:
Newton's three laws:

1st: When I'm "free-falling" in FE under no fluidity, no force is acting on me. Thus, I'm undergoing inertial motion. Fluid exerts the drag force on me, causing me to accelerate slightly up; therefore, I'm no longer undergoing inertial motion in my inertial frame of reference.
2nd: Relative to an inertial observer, the FE surely is accelerating while having mass and momentum with respect to time. Thus, the FE has a net force.
3rd: DE exerts a force on FE, and the FE exerts an equivalent reaction force back on FE. I exert a force on a brick wall in FE, and the brick wall exerts an equivalent reaction force back on me.

The equivalence between free-fall and inertial motion:

When I jump out of a plane in FE under no fluidity, I undergo inertial motion. That's free-fall in FE.

The equivalence between proper acceleration and gravity:

Proper acceleration is something we feel. Thus, while standing on the surface of FE, we undergo proper acceleration because the FE exerts an upward force on us. We perceive that as "gravity".

The laws work on FE. Deal with it.

WHAT THE HELL IS DARK ENERGY? and where did it come from? is it something that resulted from the big bang? (damn, that's a lousy name for the creation of a universe) does it keep the moon and sun and all moving upward too? and wher is "up"? how do you decide up or down in space? or maybe you can if the earth is flat and you compare everything relative to the position of the earth.
and further explaination as how to how newton's law work on fe? what makes acceleration "proper?"
“Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too”
-Voltaire

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2008, 11:19:00 PM »
WHAT THE HELL IS DARK ENERGY?
Something that accelerates the universe.

and where did it come from?
Universe.

is it something that resulted from the big bang?  (damn, that's a lousy name for the creation of a universe)
Yes, like everything else.

does it keep the moon and sun and all moving upward too? and wher is "up"?
Yes.

how do you decide up or down in space? or maybe you can if the earth is flat and you compare everything relative to the position of the earth.
Yes.

and further explaination as how to how newton's law work on fe?

what makes acceleration "proper?"
Sense.

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2008, 02:27:27 AM »
The caption in the picture says that anything equally or less massive than the atmolayer cannot escape the DEF. Thus, space-flight is not possible.

#### Jack

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2008, 03:32:16 AM »
I would expect a space shuttle to be more massive than its equivelent volume of "atmolayer".

Or is the whole of the atmosphere able to muscle up to any little thing trying to escape?
No. That role belongs to the dark energy field.

#### Jack

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2008, 03:41:39 AM »

#### Jack

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2008, 03:45:51 AM »
So do you agree that the DEF != DE?

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2008, 04:38:59 AM »
It's your guff, you tell me. *shrugs*
DEF is not the same thing as DE.

What concerns me is that the DEF now seems to perform two roles. Firstly it's (somehow, magically) countering the effect of the DE, so that the earth is accelerated but not objects on it.

An interesting, if unobserved, phenomenon.
Right.

But then the DEF is acting as a glass ceiling, no longer preventing the DE from applying but now preventing matter from escaping its field. *boink!*

This dual and seemingly contradictory functionality is unresolved.
DEF prevents the DE from affecting the objects on Earth. Objects with mass cannot escape DEF. No contradiction.

Since there's nothing but woolly conjecture and circular logic about both the DE and the DEF, it would be rude of me to expect some kind of proof for all this.
Proof:
-Things don't float.

#### markjo

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##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2008, 05:28:58 AM »
The caption in the picture says that anything equally or less massive than the atmolayer cannot escape the DEF. Thus, space-flight is not possible.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the FE itself is more massive than the atmolayer.  So, what keeps the FE from escaping the the DEF?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

#### Jack

• 5179
##### Re: How open are FErs??
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2008, 09:08:38 AM »
So the DEF affects both the DE and matter contained within the DE. Bizarre! Or is it "wonko"?
The DEF is a result when the flow of dark energy encounters an obstacle...

Quote
Proof:
-Things don't float.
Someone want to sig. that? It's gold-plated, diamond-tipped, Tom-Bishop-endorsed horse twaddle for whoever wants it.
If we are affected by DE, we would be accelerating upward at the same rate relative to the Earth once we leave its surface. Hmm, that sounds like what keeps the moon above the Earth.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the FE itself is more massive than the atmolayer.  So, what keeps the FE from escaping the the DEF?
The FE can't escape from dark energy, the very mechanism that forms the DEF.