Narc's FE Guide: RE compared to FE

FE: "The earth is round, just like how it appears"

The oceans

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FE: "The oceans stay in place because the earth is accelerating into them"
RE: "The oceans stay in place because, even though water is weightless in it's own medium, the oceans have a high pressure system of air above them that keeps the even higher pressure system of water below in place."

You never realized the RE oceans would float away?

Our theory sounds cooler, as well as being correct. Thanks Narc!

I meant RE.

Also this accelerating upwards thing always had me puzzled, what exactly is causing this upwards acceleration?

Anyone who knows Newton's laws would deduce that there must be a constant force acting on the FE to pull it upwards.

Is this claim anymore outlandish than gravity?

Let's consider FE vs RE with an occamistic inclination:
(excuse the repeated material, I am going to keep this thread as a repository, feel free to add to it)

Gravity

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FE: "the earth accelerates upwards"
RE: "a super-mysterious fabric, much like the force, that binds all things to existence bends around like it is playing twister and creates potholes where massive objects are attached, these potholes represent gravity because if you place a ball on the fabric, the ball will naturally gravitate roll down due to gravity fall into place because of gravity something but this fabric is super invisible and only comprehensible by super smart people like Einstein, which makes it true also gravitons"

Earths Heat

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FE: "heat comes from beneath us"
RE: "heat comes from the sun, but the earth mostly gets heated from the inside out because light warps into the middle of earth and works it's way out. But all heat comes from the sun, except in the shade. But it's still really really hot in deep mines because they get a lot of sunlight."

Constant acceleration

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FE: "We undergo constant acceleration upwards"
RE: "We undergo constant acceleration inwards, but even though the outer rim of earth is accelerating inwards it maintains it's shape because we stop accelerating when we are touching the ground, even though we still feel the force of acceleration working on us."

The oceans

---

FE: "The oceans stay in place because the earth is accelerating into them"
RE: "The oceans stay in place because, even though water is weightless in it's own medium, the oceans have a high pressure system of air above them that keeps the even higher pressure system of water below in place."

Global Warming

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FE: "heat comes from beneath us, any reflective materials in the atmosphere would trap the heat inside."
RE: "heat comes from the sun, any reflective materials in the atmosphere would keep the heat of the sun out. Since this is not seen, global warming is actually climate change, and if anything changes it proves that both climate change happens, and the earth is round"

Earths Curve as a sum of its parts

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FE: "The earth is flat, just like how it appears"
RE: "Even though the earth is flat everywhere, it is actually round due to large curvatures occurring in the earths surface in the deep unexplored areas of the ocean. This is where the curves must occur, because the earth is flat when I go outside."

Surface tension of individual water molecules

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FE: "Works as demonstrated in modern journals."
RE: "Even though the fluid (gas, liquid) water molecules undergo constant gyroscopic acceleration due to the earths spin, the fact that these molecules should spin fast enough to counter their own magnetic field can be ignored because we have no theory to explain this"

Our atmosphere

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FE: "it stays there because the earth accelerates into it."
RE: "As earth spins very rapidly, the atmosphere keeps from floating into space by grabbing the pertruding rods of earths merry go round very tightly."

Snowfall

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FE: "It falls straight down (neglecting wind of course)"
RE: "It falls down and wedges tighter and tighter the closer to earth it gets but does not build up in higher densities at lower altitudes because of wind, and rainbow magic."

Extending planes

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FE: "Neighbors can always level their homes with each other."
RE: "Neighbors cannot level their homes with each other, because that would prove that since the earth's curve is the sum of it's parts, it would be all level. So don't even try it, you will lose your home because of poor craftsmanship and you will die in a fire."

Gravitons

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FE: "Don't exist."
RE: "They exist as unmeasurable, invisible, perfect things that are not matter or energy that travel at a speed defined by distance/0 and also make super-massive objects instantly change their acceleration without giving them any energy to do so."

Up

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FE: "Is up."
RE: "Is up in the states, down in India, across in Belgium, forward in the antarctic, and whatever the states say in england. We have a table of conversions in the public library if that helps."

Shoe molding

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FE: "Walking on a flat earth leads to flat shoe bottoms"
RE: "Yes, its true the average shoe bottom is flat. However, we are convinced that people who wear shoes do not live in the ares of the world where the earth has a curve."


Add your own! Debunking RE is E-Z!

RE: "Neighbors cannot level their homes with each other, because that would prove that since the earth's curve is the sum of it's parts, it would be all level. So don't even try it, you will lose your home because of poor craftsmanship and you will die in a fire."

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Gravity
FE: "the earth accelerates upwards"
RE: "a super-mysterious fabric, much like the force, that binds all things to existence bends around like it is playing twister and creates potholes where massive objects are attached, these potholes represent gravity because if you place a ball on the fabric, the ball will naturally gravitate roll down due to gravity fall into place because of gravity something but this fabric is super invisible and only comprehensible by super smart people like Einstein, which makes it true also gravitons"

What you describe is the metaphor that's told to school kids because they can't understand the hard mathematics that is GR.
This point is biased. I could re-write it:

FE: The earth accelerates upwards due to some unknown force that is completely unexplained that we call "dark energy" and only goes in one direction (we will ignore conservation of momentum here) and for some reason is not constant all over the world.
RE: Objects are attracted to each other.

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Earths Heat
FE: "heat comes from beneath us"
RE: "heat comes from the sun, but the earth mostly gets heated from the inside out because light warps into the middle of earth and works it's way out. But all heat comes from the sun, except in the shade. But it's still really really hot in deep mines because they get a lot of sunlight."

In RET, the Earth's internal heat comes for radioactive decay. Where does this heat come from in FET?

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Constant acceleration
FE: "We undergo constant acceleration upwards"
RE: "We undergo constant acceleration inwards, but even though the outer rim of earth is accelerating inwards it maintains it's shape because we stop accelerating when we are touching the ground, even though we still feel the force of acceleration working on us."

The outer rim of the Earth is not accelerating inwards. Apart from that, your account of RET is pretty much accurate. Also, it is because of GR and the curvature of space-time.
In FET, why do we accelerate upwards continually?

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

The oceans
FE: "The oceans stay in place because the earth is accelerating into them"
RE: "The oceans stay in place because, even though water is weightless in it's own medium, the oceans have a high pressure system of air above them that keeps the even higher pressure system of water below in place."

Equivalence priciple: the mechanism that keeps oceans in place in FET is the same as in RET.

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Global Warming
FE: "heat comes from beneath us, any reflective materials in the atmosphere would trap the heat inside."
RE: "heat comes from the sun, any reflective materials in the atmosphere would keep the heat of the sun out. Since this is not seen, global warming is actually climate change, and if anything changes it proves that both climate change happens, and the earth is round"

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect for the actual reason in RET.

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Earths Curve as a sum of its parts
FE: "The earth is flat, just like how it appears"
RE: "Even though the earth is flat everywhere, it is actually round due to large curvatures occurring in the earths surface in the deep unexplored areas of the ocean. This is where the curves must occur, because the earth is flat when I go outside."

No, the Earth appears flat because it is very big, thus curvature is too small to be noticed.

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Our atmosphere
FE: "it stays there because the earth accelerates into it."
RE: "As earth spins very rapidly, the atmosphere keeps from floating into space by grabbing the pertruding rods of earths merry go round very tightly."

Narcberry seems to be confusing RET with The Magic Roundabout.
Earth actually spins very slowly (angular speed of 7.3E-5 rad/s), and gravity stops it floating into space.

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Snowfall
FE: "It falls straight down (neglecting wind of course)"
RE: "It falls down and wedges tighter and tighter the closer to earth it gets but does not build up in higher densities at lower altitudes because of wind, and rainbow magic."

Indeed it does become (on average) more dense as it falls, but this is effect is tiny. Snow falling from a height of 1km will be 0.03% denser at the bottom.

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Extending planes
FE: "Neighbors can always level their homes with each other."
RE: "Neighbors cannot level their homes with each other, because that would prove that since the earth's curve is the sum of it's parts, it would be all level. So don't even try it, you will lose your home because of poor craftsmanship and you will die in a fire."

As above, the effect is too small to be noticed (you don't seem to realise this: the Earth is VERY BIG).

Quote from: narcberry on April 19, 2008, 08:16:38 PM

Gravitons
FE: "Don't exist."
RE: "They exist as unmeasurable, invisible, perfect things that are not matter or energy that travel at a speed defined by distance/0 and also make super-massive objects instantly change their acceleration without giving them any energy to do so."

Gravitons are still hypothetical in RET. Anyway, what authority does a FE'er have to dictate particle physics?

EDIT: What you describe is pretty much exactly what happens with electromagnetism, which is mediated by virtual photons. Gravitons are a hypothetical example of virtual particles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

I always thought it was a grammatical thing. Gravitation in the process by which something feels gravity and proceeds to gravitate. In much the same way an evaluation is where you evaluate something. Anyway English was never my strong point.

Im being a little glib, there is I believe a convention where gravity itself is reserved for the effect on Earth, though I can't say i've ever paid any attention to it or heard someone get pulled up for it in conversation.

Ok well as particle physics is my thing ill start with gravitons. These are a hypothetical spin 2 field used to quantise the tensor field of gravity. The graviton is massless (gravity propagates at the speed of light). It is postulated to exist as a quantised theory of gravity wuld be required for a theory of everything. Im not sure what you mean by possessing neither mass or energy, it would be massless but it will have a total energy like any fundamental particle.

The atmosphere is largely held in place by gravity, the heavier molecules are at the bottom. Infact Hydrogen and Helium have a mean speed high enough to escape completely. This is why we do not see much hydrogen or helium in our atmosphere, although some slower molecules are found in the outer layers. This is why we see no atmophere on bodies much smaller than the Earth.

Up is a word to describe the direction of the sky. OR if you've been trapped in an avalanche its the opposite to the direction saliva travels when it comes out of your mouth (free survival tip there).

If hydrogen and helium are "too light" to be found at our altitude in the atmosphere, why is the primary source for hydrogen found much deeper in the earth, amongst much heavier elements than nitrogen or oxygen?

Gravitons are massless so they travel at the speed of light? Why is that limitation implied due to masslessness?

Even so, it breaks conservation of energy. Simulations of binary star systems where gravity is communicated as luminal speeds show an immense acceleration that breaks both stars free of their orbits. So this is clearly not the case.

If hydrogen and helium are "too light" to be found at our altitude in the atmosphere, why is the primary source for hydrogen found much deeper in the earth, amongst much heavier elements than nitrogen or oxygen?

So up is the direction of the sky. So on mars, up is a universal direction on the planet, denoting the direction of earths sky. This means up is independently universal for each celestial body, and only relative on the earth. The earth being the cause for many such exceptions in RET.