The all-new conspiracy theory!

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Germanicus

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2008, 07:32:33 PM »
Maybe Tom will agree with the map on his FE bible

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Earth-History-Infamous-Idea/dp/140504702X

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2008, 11:18:16 PM »
Bump. Please tell me someone has something better than Tom's magic jet streams...
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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2008, 01:23:33 AM »
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Actually, since you have presented zero data suggesting a Round Earth, I don't.

What data do I need to provide? bulk orders sent by cargo ship around the world don't turn up several weeks late. Submarine cables don't have gaps in them hundreds of kilometers long. GPS systems don't throw out errors when they find that all the satellites seem to be orbiting around the South pole, or following a ring above our heads. Maps of the seabed don't have huge, continent sized gaps in them and weather forecasters don't find that their weather systems are several thousand miles out of place.

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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2008, 04:42:01 AM »
What data do I need to provide? bulk orders sent by cargo ship around the world don't turn up several weeks late. Submarine cables don't have gaps in them hundreds of kilometers long. GPS systems don't throw out errors when they find that all the satellites seem to be orbiting around the South pole, or following a ring above our heads. Maps of the seabed don't have huge, continent sized gaps in them and weather forecasters don't find that their weather systems are several thousand miles out of place.

You assume a lot with this.

Also, meteorologists don't require satellites.
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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2008, 05:18:59 AM »
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You assume a lot with this.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm assuming that the majority of cargo makes it to it's destination when predicted, but FE models are assuming that they don't. I'm assuming that submarine cables are the size that the companies predicted using a RE model, but FET is assuming that they aren't, and the companies are either aware of the planets shape, or unaware of the large budget defect it caused. Any assumptions I'm making are no worse than the assumptions that a FEer would make.


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Also, meteorologists don't require satellites.

I don't recall suggesting they do (Not that they don't, I'm fully aware that there's plenty of meteorological satellites up there). I'm more referring to the fact that there's either a whole lot more sea or a whole lot more land in a FE model, and this is going to result either in the weather behaving in a whole different way, or hot and cold fronts not being where they are expected to be as they cross over large bodies of land/water.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that changing the shape of the planet isn't a simple matter of faking a few photos of it and producing a few incorrect experiments. A fair portion of the world relies on the maps we have being accurate, and the only way the maps we have can easily be accurate is if the planet is round.

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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2008, 05:35:16 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm assuming that the majority of cargo makes it to it's destination when predicted, but FE models are assuming that they don't. I'm assuming that submarine cables are the size that the companies predicted using a RE model, but FET is assuming that they aren't, and the companies are either aware of the planets shape, or unaware of the large budget defect it caused. Any assumptions I'm making are no worse than the assumptions that a FEer would make.

Ok:

bulk orders sent by cargo ship around the world don't turn up several weeks late. Submarine cables don't have gaps in them hundreds of kilometers long. GPS systems don't throw out errors when they find that all the satellites seem to be orbiting around the South pole, or following a ring above our heads. Maps of the seabed don't have huge, continent sized gaps in them and weather forecasters don't find that their weather systems are several thousand miles out of place.

You're assumption is that all of these things need to occur as if to prove your point. What basis for each scenario are you using for your assumptions?

I don't recall suggesting they do (Not that they don't, I'm fully aware that there's plenty of meteorological satellites up there). I'm more referring to the fact that there's either a whole lot more sea or a whole lot more land in a FE model, and this is going to result either in the weather behaving in a whole different way, or hot and cold fronts not being where they are expected to be as they cross over large bodies of land/water.

On inhabitable portions of the Earth, there isn't that much extra water. I can't imagine, without any data, that having some extra ocean would cause extremely drastic changes to what we already experiencel; chaos theory or not.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that changing the shape of the planet isn't a simple matter of faking a few photos of it and producing a few incorrect experiments. A fair portion of the world relies on the maps we have being accurate, and the only way the maps we have can easily be accurate is if the planet is round.

I don't believe anyone has claimed that it's a simple matter. I wouldn't say they can "easily be accurate" because if the Earth is round, projections are used for maps.
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Optimus Prime

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2008, 06:15:46 AM »
This is the same thing I think I've gone over before, but the problem you're running into here also is mapping problems that can be shown between two points, and drastically between three points with variable distances.

Take the known distance from wherever... I'll pick Orlando, FL to Los Angeles, CA. Now I want to go from Los Angeles to Tokyo, Japan.
Guess what? On the FE model... the distances are already way off, and by the time you've "gotten to Japan"... it's not even where it should  be.

It's not an assumption. We have a round earth based coordinate system. we can go from a presently mapped and charted location to another without issue. Let's say that you go ahead, and do your best to work that out so it works on an FE map right? Well, now your trip to Japan is even more screwed up by having adjust the other landmass(es).

Still not convinced? Ok, then make one or two more stops and it is absolutely obvious that any sort of FE map falls apart. There is no way to arrange the continents so we can travel our known distances around the globe. If anyone wants to refute road maps / pilots, etc, then just find some of the small-timers / individual cartographers and you'll end up with the same results.

Sorry, but the mapping one I can't really let it by.
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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #127 on: January 18, 2008, 06:26:00 AM »
I'm sorry, but no one has any data showing the discrepancy with the curved FE flight paths. Going of hypotheticals and common sense is the reason so many REers have problems in the debate.
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Optimus Prime

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2008, 06:36:22 AM »
I'm sorry, but no one has any data showing the discrepancy with the curved FE flight paths. Going of hypotheticals and common sense is the reason so many REers have problems in the debate.

Discuss this. How can you *not* inherently have data showing this discrepancy. If FE is not willing to produce a map, but is willing to concede that it looks somewhat like a UN logo... there are still problems.

If you make 3 points on a dome, then squish it flat... it doesn't work out the same.

Could you explain your impressions of this or how that / any map data is hypothetical?

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2008, 07:59:36 AM »
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You're assumption is that all of these things need to occur as if to prove your point. What basis for each scenario are you using for your assumptions?

Basis for Cargo ship delays: Distance between ports is unknown, as map would be inaccurate as lines of latitude in southern hemisphere are much longer than expected, and landmasses are assumed to be the same size as is currently believed, thus at least one of the bodies of water is going to much larger than expected, and cargo ships crossing it will take much longer to cross it. Alternatively, the bodies of water are the same size as currently believed and at least one of the land masses is much larger than expected, and going around them, or land based cargo transport going across them will take much longer than expected.

Basis for Submarine cables: Again, problems with the size of the bodies of water or land. There's no way you can run cables from Spain down to the Caribbean, around the coast of North and South America, across to Hawaii, down to New Zealand, up to India, down to South Africa and back around to Europe without finding a problem somewhere.

Basis for GPS Problems: A GPS signal contains information on the time, and the position of the satellite in it's orbit. Having the satellites all orbiting in a ring above our heads along the equator has the problem that none of the satellites will be where they say they are, and thus the GPS receiver won't be able to calculate it's position accurately based on the time delay between the signals received. Much the same problem with having the GPS system ground based, with the added problem of the signal used rapidly attenuating in the Atmosphere.

Basis for gap filled maps of the seabed: The sea's a completely different size to what's expected. Unless the land masses are stretched out of proportion, where the problem with maps of the land being gap-filled comes up.

Basis for Weather problems: A weather front moving around in the southern hemisphere is going to have a completely unknown distance to move, so there's no way we could predict when it's going to turn up. Much the same problem with hurricanes.

I would think these things are fairly obvious. I shouldn't have to explain each one individually...


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wouldn't say they can "easily be accurate" because if the Earth is round, projections are used for maps.

Not everyone uses a map of the whole planet with a Mercator projection. Just because projections exist doesn't mean people use them as a reliable global navigational aid.

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2008, 09:37:49 AM »
I'm sorry, but no one has any data showing the discrepancy with the curved FE flight paths. Going of hypotheticals and common sense is the reason so many REers have problems in the debate.

Furthermore, it isn't just about curved paths. It's about the paths being 3 times longer, and taking 3 times long, which isn't observed, as I proved with those flights. I think that the problem is FE'ers, claiming that my logic is faulty, when I point out that the flight should take 8 extra hours under FE, but it doesn't. Tom invented magic jet streams, miraculously running from airport to airport. Is that what you claim?
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2008, 10:11:27 AM »

Click to view larger picture


Look at this. The actual distance between Johannesburg and Sydney is less than 7000 miles. Now, using a scale measurement of the distance of New York - London which is around 3500 miles, I got a scale key of 3000 miles. Extrapolating this upon another person's FE map, which actually shrinks the distance because it doesn't go all the way around the circle, I got that the distance from Johannesburg -- Sydney according to FE is equal to over 5 times as long, because the straight line equivalent(going over Asia a bit) is almost 4 times long. Even with Tom's magic jet streams, which would only double the speed of the aircraft, the plane won't make it. Bear in mind that my estimates are conservative, since the map only goes half-way around the circumference of the Earth, so Tom's jet streams don't work, unless he increases their speed to over 1500 MPH :D .

EDIT: I know the picture's too small, bear with me as I work image hosting issues out. Fixed. Click to see larger image now.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 10:22:25 AM by fshy94 »
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2008, 11:20:40 AM »
Bump. I was really hoping, Engy, divito, or Dogplatter had an answer.
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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2008, 11:33:59 AM »
Discuss this. How can you *not* inherently have data showing this discrepancy. If FE is not willing to produce a map, but is willing to concede that it looks somewhat like a UN logo... there are still problems.

If you make 3 points on a dome, then squish it flat... it doesn't work out the same.

Could you explain your impressions of this or how that / any map data is hypothetical?

A flat Earth map isn't hypothetical? Could you point me to a scale version of one?

Basis for Cargo ship delays: Distance between ports is unknown, as map would be inaccurate as lines of latitude in southern hemisphere are much longer than expected, and landmasses are assumed to be the same size as is currently believed, thus at least one of the bodies of water is going to much larger than expected, and cargo ships crossing it will take much longer to cross it. Alternatively, the bodies of water are the same size as currently believed and at least one of the land masses is much larger than expected, and going around them, or land based cargo transport going across them will take much longer than expected.

The largest differences in distance would be in the far Southern Hemisphere. How many cargo ships are out there? What are their routes?

Basis for Submarine cables: Again, problems with the size of the bodies of water or land. There's no way you can run cables from Spain down to the Caribbean, around the coast of North and South America, across to Hawaii, down to New Zealand, up to India, down to South Africa and back around to Europe without finding a problem somewhere.

It's possible, but how many would chalk that up to a flat Earth?

Basis for GPS Problems: A GPS signal contains information on the time, and the position of the satellite in it's orbit. Having the satellites all orbiting in a ring above our heads along the equator has the problem that none of the satellites will be where they say they are, and thus the GPS receiver won't be able to calculate it's position accurately based on the time delay between the signals received. Much the same problem with having the GPS system ground based, with the added problem of the signal used rapidly attenuating in the Atmosphere.

Satellites aren't up there according to FET.

Basis for gap filled maps of the seabed: The sea's a completely different size to what's expected. Unless the land masses are stretched out of proportion, where the problem with maps of the land being gap-filled comes up.

And who notices this?

Basis for Weather problems: A weather front moving around in the southern hemisphere is going to have a completely unknown distance to move, so there's no way we could predict when it's going to turn up. Much the same problem with hurricanes.

Apparently meteorologists are always right in your area? Sorry, but weather isn't that simple of a system.

Not everyone uses a map of the whole planet with a Mercator projection. Just because projections exist doesn't mean people use them as a reliable global navigational aid.

Clearly, maps of a small local area won't have to be projected, but I can't imagine many not taking into account the curvature.
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2008, 11:49:53 AM »
About a scale map, no-one produces one, because its impossible. I challenge anyone to make a scale map of the FE, and have it work properly. And about GPS, engy says they are ground/stratellite based, which is why you can go to the middle of the ocean and have it work still. If he didn't, FE could easily be disproved with a simple trick, going into the ocean with a GPS device. And no-one answered the point on planes.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 11:52:03 AM by fshy94 »
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The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2008, 12:09:47 PM »
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The largest differences in distance would be in the far Southern Hemisphere. How many cargo ships are out there? What are their routes?

Well, from what I can tell, the main routes in the southern hemisphere are trips going between South Africa and South America, with a few going Between South Africa and Australia. Routes from Panama to Australia are also fairly prominent. A few Routes from North America and Europe seem to drop down into the Southern hemisphere.


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It's possible, but how many would chalk that up to a flat Earth?

What else would they chalk it up to? Inaccurate maps, perhaps, which they'll no doubt complain about to the private cartographer they hired, and then try to sue in a high profile court case. Thankfully no problems such as that seem to have arisen however, which suggests they have a fairly god idea of the planet's layout.


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Satellites aren't up there according to FET.

I know. But, as I mentioned, Ground based systems have much the same problem, with the added complexity of attenuating signals.


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And who notices this?

Scientists and cartographers exploring and mapping the seabed, I expect.


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Apparently meteorologists are always right in your area? Sorry, but weather isn't that simple of a system

They seem to be correct to a suitable accuracy. They can at least tell me where a large front is at the present moment, if not predict that well beyond the 3-4 day chaos barrier of the planets weather system.

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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2008, 12:17:02 PM »
Well, from what I can tell, the main routes in the southern hemisphere are trips going between South Africa and South America, with a few going Between South Africa and Australia. Routes from Panama to Australia are also fairly prominent. A few Routes from North America and Europe seem to drop down into the Southern hemisphere.

Well, I'll need to look at specific routes to notice where the discrepancy could be.

What else would they chalk it up to? Inaccurate maps, perhaps, which they'll no doubt complain about to the private cartographer they hired, and then try to sue in a high profile court case. Thankfully no problems such as that seem to have arisen however, which suggests they have a fairly god idea of the planet's layout.

Yes, inaccurate maps. The shape of the Earth would hardly come into question, and I'm very doubtful of a high-profile court case.

I know. But, as I mentioned, Ground based systems have much the same problem, with the added complexity of attenuating signals.

I can't speak to this, but maybe TheEngineer can.

Scientists and cartographers exploring and mapping the seabed, I expect.

How many are there?

They seem to be correct to a suitable accuracy. They can at least tell me where a large front is at the present moment, if not predict that well beyond the 3-4 day chaos barrier of the planets weather system.

Aye, and within what degree would a nautical mile add to the unpredictability? How about 50?
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2008, 12:23:38 PM »
You guys seem to concede that there is a discrepancy there, but that it happens and for some reason, no-one notices. I ask again, what of planes? They certainly arrive on time, and Tom's jet streams have been disproved, so...why do planes get there on time?
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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2008, 12:31:57 PM »
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Well, I'll need to look at specific routes to notice where the discrepancy could be.

http://www.worldtradepress.com/maps/images/GiantPoliticalAtlanticPorts.jpg
The best I've been able to find from a quick search of Google images what this. You should be able to make out the shipping lanes.


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Yes, inaccurate maps. The shape of the Earth would hardly come into question, and I'm very doubtful of a high-profile court case.

I would imagine that the cartography company might be a little concerned as to why the maps are inaccurate. I wouldn't be surprised if they found the Earth to measure out as flat beforehand.


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How many are there?

Typing 'ocean mapping' seems to bring up a fair few groups that are mapping the oceans.

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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2008, 01:23:53 PM »
You guys seem to concede that there is a discrepancy there, but that it happens and for some reason, no-one notices. I ask again, what of planes? They certainly arrive on time, and Tom's jet streams have been disproved, so...why do planes get there on time?

I know there will be a difference in the Southern Hemisphere. I'm not convinced that there will be much of a difference at all in the NH. Until then, I can't really say much to anyone's approval without actual data and/or math.

I'm pretty sure Trekky made a flight plan map showing the paths. I don't believe any of the distances magically changed.
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2008, 01:29:04 PM »
OK, lets assume you're right and the Northern hemisphere's difference is negligible. There's no need for much math. All projections of an FE show the tropics concentric, so the distance must be increased. I calculate its anywhere between a factor of 3-7 times as long from South Africa to Australia. Yet I provided concrete proof that the flights(I gave flight numbers) departed and arrived approximately on time, in both directions. Are you telling me you think there are two-way jet streams running at 1500 MPH, like Tom does?
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2008, 02:25:44 PM »
Bump
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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2008, 02:31:02 PM »
No, there are no jet streams like that. Do you have a plotted path for that flight? It's hard to imagine it on a flat Earth without knowing their headings.
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2008, 02:32:14 PM »
Yeah, I do. I think a page ago there is a small image I posted. Click on it for the expanded version, which looks a lot better. Take a look.

EDIT: Here


Click to view larger picture


Look at this. The actual distance between Johannesburg and Sydney is less than 7000 miles. Now, using a scale measurement of the distance of New York - London which is around 3500 miles, I got a scale key of 3000 miles. Extrapolating this upon another person's FE map, which actually shrinks the distance because it doesn't go all the way around the circle, I got that the distance from Johannesburg -- Sydney according to FE is equal to over 5 times as long, because the straight line equivalent(going over Asia a bit) is almost 4 times long. Even with Tom's magic jet streams, which would only double the speed of the aircraft, the plane won't make it. Bear in mind that my estimates are conservative, since the map only goes half-way around the circumference of the Earth, so Tom's jet streams don't work, unless he increases their speed to over 1500 MPH :D .

EDIT: I know the picture's too small, bear with me as I work image hosting issues out. Fixed. Click to see larger image now.
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The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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divito the truthist

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #144 on: January 18, 2008, 02:35:22 PM »
The straight line is the flight path?
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2008, 02:38:05 PM »
No. The straight line is the closest possible fit(according to FE), while the curved line was the actual fit. I used the closest fit because my program could not calculate the length of a curved line(it would be longer), so, since the best fit line was more than enough to prove my point, I used it for calculations. I used the distance between New York to London as the scale for 3000 miles(which is conservative, since it's actually closer to 3500), and even with all this conservativeness, it still, is not possible. The best fit line, is still almost 4x longer than it should be. You need a jetstream of 1500 MPH to make that happen, and I have flights from before, that I showed.
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The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2008, 07:25:27 PM »
Sigh. No-one?
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TheEngineer

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2008, 08:06:20 PM »
One would think the hint would be well received after the 20th bump... ::)


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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #148 on: January 18, 2008, 08:06:50 PM »
Sigh. No-one?

I'll argue with you if you want
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fshy94

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Re: The all-new conspiracy theory!
« Reply #149 on: January 18, 2008, 09:25:06 PM »
On the subject? I'm honestly wondering if any of the staunch FE believers have anything to say? Not engy? Divito just asked for  clarification, and then erm...left. What about Dogplatter? Sadly enough, it seems as though they ignore this topic in favor of keeping their beliefs.

If I'm not mistaken, you're an RE'er, right? So...what argument can be offered? Apart from Tom's 1500 MPH jet streams that conveniently start and end on all major airports. :D
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!