Gravity: a repost

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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2007, 07:13:47 PM »
It's the words coming out of Einstein himself that's more important, since he's the one who thought of the theory (which seems to explain gravity can also be a pseudo-force), and you agree with his theory.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #121 on: October 24, 2007, 07:15:24 PM »
Come on. So you believe gravity exists, you just want to call it something else, specify that it's NOT a force, but otherwise behaves completely the same way.
No, gravity as a force does not exist.  Gravity does not behave like gravitation.


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TheEngineer

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #122 on: October 24, 2007, 07:19:20 PM »
Show me how gravity is a force.  If you can't, then I'm right. 
Jump off an airplane.
When I do that, the force disappears.  You fail.

Quote
Now, give me the quotes? See, you can't.  Einstein never said gravity as a force does not exist. You fail.
Read GR.


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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2007, 07:29:31 PM »
Show me how gravity is a force.  If you can't, then I'm right. 
Jump off an airplane.
When I do that, the force disappears.  You fail.
Nope. The force does not disappear.

Quote
Now, give me the quotes? See, you can't.  Einstein never said gravity as a force does not exist. You fail.
Read GR.
Nice dodge. Again, as demonstrated, you can't find the quotes because Einstein never said such thing. Give me the quotes now and you may have a chance to redeem yourself.


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TheEngineer

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2007, 07:43:11 PM »
Nope. The force does not disappear.
Really?  Then what would a scale read if I were to put one under my feet while I was in the air?

Quote
Nice dodge. Again, as demonstrated, you can't find the quotes because Einstein never said such thing. Give me the quotes now and you may have a chance to redeem yourself.
Yep, it is Gulliver, reincarnate. 

It must suck always being wrong, about, well, everything.  GPS, gravity...I don't blame you for getting defensive.


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ChiefConspirator

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2007, 07:49:02 PM »
Quote
The question is, how does any of this explain the ridiculously complicated paths of the sun and moon? That is to say, how does being "in each other's geodesics" explain their behavior?
They are in each other's geodesics, thus they are traversing straight paths through four dimensions. 

More specific please. Please describe how the idea of warped spacetime somehow accounts for a sun  and moon rotating around an arbitrary point at arbitrary rates at an arbitrarily changing radius.

Come on. So you believe gravity exists, you just want to call it something else, specify that it's NOT a force, but otherwise behaves completely the same way.
No, gravity as a force does not exist.  Gravity does not behave like gravitation.

Ok ok. I understand Einstein's idea. I get what you're saying. But can you please describe how the effect of "gravity" is different than gravitation?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 08:46:07 PM by ChiefConspirator »
I've never seen any round earth. Why should I believe in something I've never seen?

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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2007, 07:50:45 PM »
Nope. The force does not disappear.
Really?  Then what would a scale read if I were to put one under my feet while I was in the air?
You feel no weight, but that doesn't mean the force of gravity is non-existent because it pulls you toward the center of the Earth.

Quote
Nice dodge. Again, as demonstrated, you can't find the quotes because Einstein never said such thing. Give me the quotes now and you may have a chance to redeem yourself.
Yep, it is Gulliver, reincarnate. 

It must suck always being wrong, about, well, everything.  GPS, gravity...I don't blame you for getting defensive.

You must feel really bad for denying everything and making stuffs up. GPS does not require satellites (or 3 is better than 24)... gravity not a force... gravity is acceleration (or vice-versa)... etc. It's alright to be ignorant, but, please, at least have some sense of reality.

By the way, where are the quotes from Einstein? Gonna dodge again with another post about something that's completely off-topic, just like this one?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 08:07:08 PM by Jack. »

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Captain Alitus

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2007, 07:54:51 PM »
Nope. The force does not disappear.
Really?  Then what would a scale read if I were to put one under my feet while I was in the air?
Zero. The scale is moving at the same rate as you, no?
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divito the truthist

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2007, 08:36:58 PM »
I assume you know that Wikipedia is unreliable without sources, especially for controversial topics?

It's always unreliable if it doesn't say what you want it to.

Gravity is classified as a force or not like light is partially considered particle/wave.

And we've already established why it's considered a force and why that's incorrect, or at the very, very least, inaccurate.

Consider that no source you found doesn't have a countering source.

Double negative. A countering source to what causes gravitation?

I can only see two ways it could be interpreted anyhow. 1. Neither gravity or gravitation is fictitious. or 2. Gravity isn't fictitious and gravity isn't gravitation. Never said gravitation was fictitious.

Neither. The curvature of spacetime and its deformation causes gravitation (not fictitious). The Earth's resistance and assumption that we are stationary make us think there is a force (gravity) when that is not the case.

Supporting the claim that gravity is fictitious when you keep gravitation. Two elements of GR.

They are two different things. Can you show me where gravity (not gravitation) is used in GR?

And if you're not satisfied, I can retrieve more than the seven sources I already have outlining gravity's fictitious nature.

Why do you think gravity isn't caused as the deformation of space?

Because gravitation is caused by it, and they are both completely different things. Again, gravity is a force that causes gravitation. Einstein believed, and logically, that it's really the curvature of spacetime that causes gravitation. Again, the Earth's resistance and assumption that we are stationary make us think there is a force (termed gravity) when that is not the case.

How does this one help your case again?

Invoking a force when they incorrectly assume something. See above.

And where is my response to your disagreement with TheEngineer? I need to understand everybody's position on the subject.

Don't really have disagreements, other than I don't subscribe to all those ideas . Most of the conclusions you gathered are individual ideas from individual members. There is hardly a consensus on whether or not they can be submitted for what they are, nor have the issues regarding those ideas been debated enough.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 09:46:09 PM by divito the fascist »
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TheEngineer

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2007, 09:36:42 PM »
Nope. The force does not disappear.
Really?  Then what would a scale read if I were to put one under my feet while I was in the air?
Zero. The scale is moving at the same rate as you, no?
Right.  So by changing my frame of reference, the force no longer appears.

Newton's laws of inertia, specifically, his first and second laws of motion, DO NOT hold in non inertial frames of reference.  Therefore, objects can accelerate, change direction, move, etc. without an exterior force.  Therefore, spooky action at a distance is not needed.


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TheEngineer

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2007, 09:41:07 PM »
You must feel really bad for denying everything and making stuffs up.
What do I deny and make up?

Quote
GPS does not require satellites (or 3 is better than 24)... gravity not a force... gravity is acceleration (or vice-versa)... etc. It's alright to be ignorant, but, please, at least have some sense of reality.
That's funny, as everything I have said is consistent with modern physics, while everything you have said is just, well, ignorant.

Quote
By the way, where are the quotes from Einstein?
Quote from: Einstein
Gab=8piTab


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TheEngineer

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2007, 09:48:06 PM »
More specific please. Please describe how the idea of warped spacetime somehow accounts for a sun  and moon rotating around an arbitrary point at arbitrary rates at an arbitrarily changing radius.
I don't know how to be more specific.  Objects are moving in straight lines (geodesics) in four dimensions.

Quote
But can you please describe how the effect of "gravity" is different than gravitation?
Gravity is a pseudo force that arises by the transformation of a non inertial frame of reference into an inertial one.  Gravity necessarily requires that it violates Special Relativity.  Gravity necessarily only affects objects with mass.

Gravitation is not a force between objects.  Gravitation is consistent with Special Relativity.  Gravitation affects all objects that move through four dimensional space time.


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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2007, 10:57:52 PM »
Neither. The curvature of spacetime and its deformation causes gravitation (not fictitious). The Earth's resistance and assumption that we are stationary make us think there is a force (gravity) when that is not the case.
So, how does spacetime's deformation causes gravitation?

By the way:
Quote from: Wikipedia
General relativity is the theory of gravitation published by Albert Einstein in 1915. According to it, the force of gravity is a manifestation of the local geometry of spacetime.
Source: Loop quantum gravity.

They are two different things. Can you show me where gravity (not gravitation) is used in GR?
Well, what makes them different, other than the fact that gravity, as you've claimed, is not a force?

General relativity uses gravity as the manifestation of the curvature of spacetime. 

Quote from: article
Einstein visualized gravity as a manifestation of the curvature of space-time - the three space dimensions and a fourth time dimension.
Source: here.

Because gravitation is caused by it, and they are both completely different things. Again, gravity is a force that causes gravitation. Einstein showed that it's really the curvature of spacetime that causes gravitation. Again, the Earth's resistance and assumption that we are stationary make us think there is a force (termed gravity) when that is not the case.
-Gravity is a force that causes gravitation.

-Einstein showed that it's really the curvature of spacetime that causes gravitation.

So... which one is right?


You must feel really bad for denying everything and making stuffs up.
What do I deny and make up?
The stuffs I've just wrote. Don't blame me if you can't read.

Quote
GPS does not require satellites (or 3 is better than 24)... gravity not a force... gravity is acceleration (or vice-versa)... etc. It's alright to be ignorant, but, please, at least have some sense of reality.
That's funny, as everything I have said is consistent with modern physics, while everything you have said is just, well, ignorant.
Consistent of what? Modern physics? Sounds like pseudo-physics to me.

Quote
By the way, where are the quotes from Einstein?
Quote from: Einstein
Gab=8piTab
So, you gave me a little equation.

You mean this?
Quote from: wikipedia
The expression on the left represents the curvature of spacetime as determined by the metric and the expression on the right represents the matter/energy content of spacetime.
Source: here.
This equation still doesn't prove that Einstein meant gravity as a force does not exist. This, however, is a definition to his concepts.

See, you still can't find a literate quote from Einstein himself. Rather, you go through some GR articles and swap one of the equations and place it on here. I'm pretty sure Einstein can speak and write English.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 11:00:59 PM by Jack. »

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divito the truthist

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2007, 11:28:41 PM »
So, how does spacetime's deformation causes gravitation?

We already had this discussion, and you ignored the answer.

Quote from: Wikipedia
General relativity is the theory of gravitation published by Albert Einstein in 1915. According to it, the force of gravity is a manifestation of the local geometry of spacetime.

The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation.

Well, what makes them different, other than the fact that gravity, as you've claimed, is not a force?

I know I've pasted this for you before, but let's see if you decide to not ignore it this time.

"In scientific usage gravitation and gravity are distinct. "Gravitation" is the attractive influence that all objects exert on each other, while "gravity" specifically refers to a force which all massive objects (objects with mass) are theorized to exert on each other to cause gravitation. Although these terms are interchangeable in everyday use, in theories other than Newton's, gravitation is caused by factors other than gravity. For example in general relativity, gravitation is due to spacetime curvatures which causes inertially moving objects to tend to accelerate towards each other."


Quote from: article
Einstein visualized gravity as a manifestation of the curvature of space-time - the three space dimensions and a fourth time dimension.

The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation, again.

-Gravity is a force that causes gravitation.

-Einstein showed that it's really the curvature of spacetime that causes gravitation.

So... which one is right?

Why the hell would you ask this? Have you been paying attention to this thread?

This equation still doesn't prove that Einstein meant gravity as a force does not exist. This, however, is a definition to his concepts.

See, you still can't find a literate quote from Einstein himself. Rather, you go through some GR articles and swap one of the equations and place it on here. I'm pretty sure Einstein can speak and write English.

His work speaks for him.
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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2007, 11:54:48 PM »
So, how does spacetime's deformation causes gravitation?

We already had this discussion, and you ignored the answer.
Well, where is it?

The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation, again.
It's injustice to say general relativity doesn't use gravity.

GR states gravity is a manifestation of the curvature of space time. I'm not talking about the Newtonian definition of gravity; I'm talking about the Einstein definition of gravity. These are two different ideas, and you mix them up into one.

-Gravity is a force that causes gravitation.

-Einstein showed that it's really the curvature of spacetime that causes gravitation.

So... which one is right?

Why the hell would you ask this? Have you been paying attention to this thread?
Because you stated two different things.

This equation still doesn't prove that Einstein meant gravity as a force does not exist. This, however, is a definition to his concepts.

See, you still can't find a literate quote from Einstein himself. Rather, you go through some GR articles and swap one of the equations and place it on here. I'm pretty sure Einstein can speak and write English.

His work speaks for him.
I'm pretty sure Einstein, in his own words, wrote many journals about his theory, and people quoted many phrases from them.

How does "The EFE are used to determine the curvature of spacetime resulting from the presence of mass and energy" is equal to "I am convinced that gravity as a force does not exist (assume this is from Einstein)"?

Like I've said, I want a literate quote from Einstein himself, not formulas.  I could just swap one of the Newtonian formulas and prove gravity exists, in the same fashion as TheEngineer just did.

If you still can't find a good quote from him, then we shall agree Einstein never said such thing.

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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #135 on: October 25, 2007, 12:05:54 AM »
Quote from: Wikipedia
"In scientific usage gravitation and gravity are distinct. "Gravitation" is the attractive influence that all objects exert on each other, while "gravity" specifically refers to a force which all massive objects (objects with mass) are theorized to exert on each other to cause gravitation. Although these terms are interchangeable in everyday use, in theories other than Newton's, gravitation is caused by factors other than gravity. For example in general relativity, gravitation is due to spacetime curvatures which causes inertially moving objects to tend to accelerate towards each other."
Quote from: definition of "gravity"
The natural force of attraction between any massive bodies, which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

How is ["The natural force of attraction between any massive bodies, which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them"] different from ["attractive influence that all objects exert on each other"]?

Influence = force. Can you explain to me how's that different?

Quote from: definition of "force"
An influence on a body or system, producing or tending to produce a change in movement or in shape or other effects.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 12:12:29 AM by Jack. »

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divito the truthist

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #136 on: October 25, 2007, 12:13:33 AM »
It's injustice to say general relativity doesn't use gravity.

Fallacy.

GR states gravity is a manifestation of the curvature of space time.

Ignoring again are we?

The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation, again.

I'm not talking about the Newtonian definition of gravity; I'm talking about the Einstein definition of gravity. These are two different ideas, and you mix them up into one.

Oh, so where is Einstein's definition of gravity? And don't forget the information you ignored above.

Because you stated two different things.

Yes, gravity as defined, is a force that causes gravitation. We however, know that gravity is the result of an incorrect assumption.

If you still can't find a good quote from him, then we shall agree Einstein never said such thing.

I'm pretty sure the chances of him saying something so specific is pretty slim. I'm sure you'll never find a quote.
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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2007, 12:22:04 AM »
It's injustice to say general relativity doesn't use gravity.

Fallacy.
Nope.

Ignoring again are we?

The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation, again.
Ignoring again, are we?

Quote from: Jack.
GR states gravity is a manifestation of the curvature of space time. I'm not talking about the Newtonian definition of gravity; I'm talking about the Einstein definition of gravity. These are two different ideas, and you mix them up into one.

Oh, so where is Einstein's definition of gravity? And don't forget the information you ignored above.
Gravity is the curvature of spacetime.

If you still can't find a good quote from him, then we shall agree Einstein never said such thing.

I'm pretty sure the chances of him saying something so specific is pretty slim. I'm sure you'll never find a quote.
Therefore, we can conclude that Einstein never said gravity as a force does not exist. The end.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 12:31:36 AM by Jack. »

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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2007, 12:31:01 AM »
And don't forget the information you ignored above.
I ignored what?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #139 on: October 25, 2007, 12:49:06 AM »
Gravity is the curvature of spacetime.

So now gravity and gravitation are suddenly the same? And where is your source?

Therefore, we can conclude that Einstein never said gravity as a force does not exist. The end.

Was that ever in question?

I ignored what?

The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation.
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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #140 on: October 25, 2007, 01:01:02 AM »
Gravity is the curvature of spacetime.

So now gravity and gravitation are suddenly the same? And where is your source?
Yep, gravity is the curvature of spacetime.

Quote from: article
Einstein envisioned gravity as a curvature of space-time.
Quote from: article
The force of gravity, Einstein said, is the curvature in space-time caused by any object.
Source: here, here, and here.

Therefore, we can conclude that Einstein never said gravity as a force does not exist. The end.
Was that ever in question?
Who said it was in question? I was asking you guys to bring me a quote from Einstein; You guys couldn't. Therefore, I wrote the conclusion.

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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #141 on: October 25, 2007, 01:03:37 AM »
The "force of gravity" they listed is nothing more than the common sense notion of what we perceive and experience on Earth. This is evidenced by the use of the word manifestation.

Quote from: Jack.
GR states gravity is a manifestation of the curvature of space time. I'm not talking about the Newtonian definition of gravity; I'm talking about the Einstein definition of gravity. These are two different ideas, and you mix them up into one.

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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #142 on: October 25, 2007, 01:14:25 AM »
It's sad how the force of gravity suddenly becomes almost non-existent just because of one theory's explanation. And, of course, it's a theory!

Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #143 on: October 25, 2007, 01:16:01 AM »
Force.

Not a force.


Seems like quite a big difference.  But I would expect actual physicists to know this.
We do. But in practice it simply doesn't matter enough for anyone to make the fuss over it that you do.

Pathetically weak attempt at an ad hom btw.
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Jack

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #144 on: October 25, 2007, 01:21:34 AM »
By the way, divito:

Quote from: Stephen Hawking's article
Albert Einstein modified this view of gravity by arguing that the gravitational force (gravity) is a manifestation of the curvature of space-time.
Source: here.

Prove Hawking wrong, then.


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divito the truthist

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #145 on: October 25, 2007, 01:35:49 AM »
Yep, gravity is the curvature of spacetime.

Sigh, this is worse than arguing with sokarul or Gulliver, at least they could be accurate and specific at times. Although they too, like yourself, could never admit when they were wrong.

Let's try and make this succinct so that everyone can understand. Gravity and gravitation are two completely different things. Gravity is generally described as a force that causes gravitation. GR postulates that gravitation is actually caused by curved spacetime and that everything is following a geodesic. This means that objects subject to gravitation are doing so because of the deformation of space, an unforced motion.

However, when people refer to gravity or the gravitational force, they are talking about our ability to stay situated on the Earth and the perceived force that we feel. We attribute this feeling to the "force of gravity" because we think that we aren't accelerating.

However, as outlined by the physicist, what we feel on Earth is really gravitation. It just happens to be countered by the Earth.

In short, matter curves spacetime which causes gravitation (acceleration), which causes objects (us) to follow geodesics, which is stopped by the Earth, which is then thought to be a force (gravity). But the simple aspect to this is that gravity really isn't a force.

Who said it was in question? I was asking you guys to bring me a quote from Einstein; You guys couldn't. Therefore, I wrote the conclusion.

That's wonderful; you concluded something we weren't even debating. Congratulations!

It's sad how the force of gravity suddenly becomes almost non-existent just because of one theory's explanation. And, of course, it's a theory!

Gravity exists, but it's not because of a force as people think it is. This is what we're trying to get you to understand. And yes, GR is still a theory.

We do. But in practice it simply doesn't matter enough for anyone to make the fuss over it that you do.

No one is really making a fuss. We make a correction and people freak out, although several sources outline the very things we are saying.

Prove Hawking wrong, then.

I don't need to prove him wrong. He's correct. Gravitational force (the Earth's mechanical resistance to our acceleration), is a manifestation of the curvature of space-time. There is a reason the word manifestation is used in almost all of your sources you use to try and prove me wrong.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 07:23:27 AM by divito the fascist »
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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #146 on: October 25, 2007, 02:34:34 AM »
Yep, gravity is the curvature of spacetime.

Sigh, this is worse than arguing with sokarul or Gulliver, at least they could be accurate and specific at times. Although they too, like yourself, could never admit when they were wrong.

Let's try and make this succinct so that everyone can understand. Gravity and gravitation are two completely different things. Gravity is generally described as a force that causes gravitation. GR postulates that gravitation is actually caused by curved spacetime and that everything is following a geodesic. This means that objects subject to gravitation are doing so because of the deformation of space, an unforced motion.

However, when people refer to gravity or the gravitational force, they are talking about our ability to stay situated on the Earth and the perceived force that we feel. We attribute this feeling to the "force of gravity" because we think that we aren't accelerating.

However, as outlined by the physicist, what we feel on Earth is really gravitation. It just happens to be countered by the Earth.

In short, curved spacetime causes gravitation (acceleration) which causes objects (us) to follow geodesics, which is stopped by the Earth, which is then thought to be a force (gravity). But the simple aspect to this is that gravity really isn't a force.
Hmm... So this is the product of a brainwashed individual.

The Engineer said gravity is an acceleration. Now you said gravitation is an acceleration. You claimed both gravity and gravitation are different. So, the acceleration caused by gravity is different from the acceleration caused by gravitation? There's actually two kinds of acceleration?!  :o

All my sources (even Hawking's) about gravity as a curvature of space time are wrong: what you said is correct. Cheers!

Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #147 on: October 25, 2007, 04:09:27 AM »
No one is really making a fuss. We make a correction and people freak out, although several sources outline the very things we are saying.
Your 'correction' is unnecessary and does nothing more than sideline the issue at hand. It's like pointing out spelling mistakes.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #148 on: October 25, 2007, 05:55:10 AM »
The Engineer said gravity is an acceleration. Now you said gravitation is an acceleration. You claimed both gravity and gravitation are different. So, the acceleration caused by gravity is different from the acceleration caused by gravitation? There's actually two kinds of acceleration?!  :o

No. How did you get that? The acceleration we feel on Earth that is attributed to gravity, is the same acceleration that is really caused by gravitation.

All my sources (even Hawking's) about gravity as a curvature of space time are wrong: what you said is correct. Cheers!

Because you don't know how to use English, they were wrong initially. The way Hawking and the rest of your sources worded it are correct. The problem is, you must not understand what manifestation means, and why each of your sources used it.

"However, when people refer to gravity or the gravitational force, they are talking about our ability to stay situated on the Earth and the perceived force that we feel. We attribute this feeling to the "force of gravity" because we think that we aren't accelerating."


"Gravity" is present because as we follow a geodesic, we are stopped by the Earth and assume we are stationary. This is why they say it is a "manifestation of the curvature of space-time." It manifests itself "by taking a non inertial frame of reference to be inertial."

Your 'correction' is unnecessary and does nothing more than sideline the issue at hand. It's like pointing out spelling mistakes.

I think it's a little more serious than a spelling mistake.
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Re: Gravity: a repost
« Reply #149 on: October 25, 2007, 06:54:29 AM »
The earth is round.
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