My Problem with Universal Acceleration

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #270 on: August 16, 2007, 07:15:30 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #271 on: August 16, 2007, 07:17:03 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
OMG!

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #272 on: August 16, 2007, 07:27:21 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #273 on: August 16, 2007, 07:30:57 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.

Well, I don't think there's any question that all gravitation is acceleration.  That's been abundantly proven.  But as Gulliver pointed out, this thread started as a thread about acceleration as it relates to the flat earth.  While you can argue that all gravitational lensing is caused by acceleration (because gravitation is acceleration) I'm not so sure you can apply the same logic to acceleration as it relates to the flat earth (that everything is simply accelerating  upwards).  And since the conversation developed from talk about acceleration of the flat earth, it must be taken that that's what TheEngineer was talking about.

I'm just not sure, though, because Gulliver and sokarul can keep saying the same things over and over again till they're blue in the face, until they back up their argument I'm not necessarily buying it.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #274 on: August 16, 2007, 07:35:00 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.

Well, I don't think there's any question that all gravitation is acceleration.  That's been abundantly proven.  But as Gulliver pointed out, this thread started as a thread about acceleration as it relates to the flat earth.  While you can argue that all gravitational lensing is caused by acceleration (because gravitation is acceleration) I'm not so sure you can apply the same logic to acceleration as it relates to the flat earth (that everything is simply accelerating  upwards).  And since the conversation developed from talk about acceleration of the flat earth, it must be taken that that's what TheEngineer was talking about.

I'm just not sure, though, because Gulliver and sokarul can keep saying the same things over and over again till they're blue in the face, until they back up their argument I'm not necessarily buying it.

I disagree with the bold part.  I do this, because you should never assume what someone means when they say something, unless they're very specific about what they say.  TheEngineer, I believe, was not arguing the the FE's acceleration causes the gravitational lensing.  If he did mean that, then I will gladly say that I don't understand how it could.  Since (as of now) I don't think that's what was meant, I'm going to hold my view.
OMG!

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #275 on: August 16, 2007, 07:37:36 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
OMG!

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #276 on: August 16, 2007, 07:46:42 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.

Well, I don't think there's any question that all gravitation is acceleration.  That's been abundantly proven.  But as Gulliver pointed out, this thread started as a thread about acceleration as it relates to the flat earth.  While you can argue that all gravitational lensing is caused by acceleration (because gravitation is acceleration) I'm not so sure you can apply the same logic to acceleration as it relates to the flat earth (that everything is simply accelerating  upwards).  And since the conversation developed from talk about acceleration of the flat earth, it must be taken that that's what TheEngineer was talking about.

I'm just not sure, though, because Gulliver and sokarul can keep saying the same things over and over again till they're blue in the face, until they back up their argument I'm not necessarily buying it.

I disagree with the bold part.  I do this, because you should never assume what someone means when they say something, unless they're very specific about what they say.  TheEngineer, I believe, was not arguing the the FE's acceleration causes the gravitational lensing.  If he did mean that, then I will gladly say that I don't understand how it could.  Since (as of now) I don't think that's what was meant, I'm going to hold my view.

See, I disagree though, because if you really go back to where the argument started, you see that what Engy was saying was in direct response to a challenge about the FE.  Somebody was commenting about the FE and it was Engy's rebuttal.  In this case it's clear that it was acceleration as it relates to a flat earth that was being talked about, on both sides (look at Engy's earliest posts if you want to disagree with me; it all started and went for a while with Engy defending the FE).
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #277 on: August 16, 2007, 07:53:55 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #278 on: August 16, 2007, 08:27:45 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

You're saying that the massive body is not accelerating the light now?  So I guess gravitational lensing doesn't occur now, right?


EDIT:  Your reference says that you can't use Newton's Second Law on light.  I never said you could.  You sure love changing the argument, don't you?
OMG!

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #279 on: August 16, 2007, 08:30:27 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

You're saying that the massive body is not accelerating the light now?  So I guess gravitational lensing doesn't occur now, right?
I never said it did. I always said that gravity can bend light. No. I still think gravitational lensing occurs.

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #280 on: August 16, 2007, 08:31:43 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.

Well, I don't think there's any question that all gravitation is acceleration.  That's been abundantly proven.  But as Gulliver pointed out, this thread started as a thread about acceleration as it relates to the flat earth.  While you can argue that all gravitational lensing is caused by acceleration (because gravitation is acceleration) I'm not so sure you can apply the same logic to acceleration as it relates to the flat earth (that everything is simply accelerating  upwards).  And since the conversation developed from talk about acceleration of the flat earth, it must be taken that that's what TheEngineer was talking about.

I'm just not sure, though, because Gulliver and sokarul can keep saying the same things over and over again till they're blue in the face, until they back up their argument I'm not necessarily buying it.

I disagree with the bold part.  I do this, because you should never assume what someone means when they say something, unless they're very specific about what they say.  TheEngineer, I believe, was not arguing the the FE's acceleration causes the gravitational lensing.  If he did mean that, then I will gladly say that I don't understand how it could.  Since (as of now) I don't think that's what was meant, I'm going to hold my view.

See, I disagree though, because if you really go back to where the argument started, you see that what Engy was saying was in direct response to a challenge about the FE.  Somebody was commenting about the FE and it was Engy's rebuttal.  In this case it's clear that it was acceleration as it relates to a flat earth that was being talked about, on both sides (look at Engy's earliest posts if you want to disagree with me; it all started and went for a while with Engy defending the FE).

I just reread the first 3 pages of the thread.  I understand why you hold your position, and how you came to your conclusion.  I respect your position, but I still do not interpret it the same way you are.
OMG!

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #281 on: August 16, 2007, 08:35:08 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

Reading the above sounded like you were talking down to me and my position, which was that the light is accelerated.  I apologize if this is not what was intended, but it definitely felt like you were trying to prove me wrong on something when I was right (as you just said)

Also, please don't post articles that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
OMG!

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #282 on: August 16, 2007, 08:49:58 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

Reading the above sounded like you were talking down to me and my position, which was that the light is accelerated.  I apologize if this is not what was intended, but it definitely felt like you were trying to prove me wrong on something when I was right (as you just said)

Also, please don't post articles that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I am trying to get you to realize that light cannot be accelerated. Bent? Yes. Accelerated? No. I thought that you knew this. I'm sure that you understand that after reading the link to PI. This means that "acceleration" of light is not a valid part of any logical argument in physics.

Photons are massless. There is no force that acts on a massless object. Without mass and without force, there simply is no acceleration.

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #283 on: August 16, 2007, 08:56:11 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

Reading the above sounded like you were talking down to me and my position, which was that the light is accelerated.  I apologize if this is not what was intended, but it definitely felt like you were trying to prove me wrong on something when I was right (as you just said)

Also, please don't post articles that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I am trying to get you to realize that light cannot be accelerated. Bent? Yes. Accelerated? No. I thought that you knew this. I'm sure that you understand that after reading the link to PI. This means that "acceleration" of light is not a valid part of any logical argument in physics.

Photons are massless. There is no force that acts on a massless object. Without mass and without force, there simply is no acceleration.

I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
OMG!

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #284 on: August 16, 2007, 09:17:11 PM »
...
I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
No. Acceleration is the change over time in velocity of an object (with mass).

Reference: Physics Classroom
Acceleration  is a vector quantity which is defined as "the rate at which an object changes its velocity." An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity.

Sometimes, I've seen poor definitions that omit the object. It's important to remember that Newton's Second Law is the defining statement.

Also, are you sure that you wish to say that no force is acting? How do you have acceleration without force?

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #285 on: August 16, 2007, 09:24:33 PM »
...
I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
No. Acceleration is the change over time in velocity of an object (with mass).

Reference: Physics Classroom
Acceleration  is a vector quantity which is defined as "the rate at which an object changes its velocity." An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity.

Sometimes, I've seen poor definitions that omit the object. It's important to remember that Newton's Second Law is the defining statement.

Also, are you sure that you wish to say that no force is acting? How do you have acceleration without force?

The acceleration is only apparent if you are viewing only 3 dimensions.  In spacetime, the light travels a straight line.  No force is acting on the light, just as no force pulls me to the Earth, the force there is what keeps me from following my geodesic to the center of the Earth.  I was wrong, however, to say that the light is accelerated.  It would be more proper to say the light appears to accelerate because we can only view 3 dimensions at a time.  I admit that I was wrong to word it the way I did.

EDIT:  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object. was supposed to make the above point, but it was weakly worded.  Sorry.
OMG!

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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #286 on: August 16, 2007, 09:35:11 PM »
...
I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
No. Acceleration is the change over time in velocity of an object (with mass).

Reference: Physics Classroom
Acceleration  is a vector quantity which is defined as "the rate at which an object changes its velocity." An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity.

Sometimes, I've seen poor definitions that omit the object. It's important to remember that Newton's Second Law is the defining statement.

Also, are you sure that you wish to say that no force is acting? How do you have acceleration without force?

The acceleration is only apparent if you are viewing only 3 dimensions.  In spacetime, the light travels a straight line.  No force is acting on the light, just as no force pulls me to the Earth, the force there is what keeps me from following my geodesic to the center of the Earth.  I was wrong, however, to say that the light is accelerated.  It would be more proper to say the light appears to accelerate because we can only view 3 dimensions at a time.  I admit that I was wrong to word it the way I did.

EDIT:  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object. was supposed to make the above point, but it was weakly worded.  Sorry.
Good job. I think we're making progress. My concern now is that saying that light is accelerated. I believe that better statement is: light's path bends under the influence of a gravitational field much like a passing object's path would be changed.

To speak even of "apparent" acceleration of light still begs the question of what force is acting on what mass. We agree that there is neither force or mass, so it's hard to argue for acceleration.

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #287 on: August 16, 2007, 09:38:49 PM »
...
I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
No. Acceleration is the change over time in velocity of an object (with mass).

Reference: Physics Classroom
Acceleration  is a vector quantity which is defined as "the rate at which an object changes its velocity." An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity.

Sometimes, I've seen poor definitions that omit the object. It's important to remember that Newton's Second Law is the defining statement.

Also, are you sure that you wish to say that no force is acting? How do you have acceleration without force?

The acceleration is only apparent if you are viewing only 3 dimensions.  In spacetime, the light travels a straight line.  No force is acting on the light, just as no force pulls me to the Earth, the force there is what keeps me from following my geodesic to the center of the Earth.  I was wrong, however, to say that the light is accelerated.  It would be more proper to say the light appears to accelerate because we can only view 3 dimensions at a time.  I admit that I was wrong to word it the way I did.

EDIT:  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object. was supposed to make the above point, but it was weakly worded.  Sorry.
Good job. I think we're making progress. My concern now is that saying that light is accelerated. I believe that better statement is: light's path bends under the influence of a gravitational field much like a passing object's path would be changed.

To speak even of "apparent" acceleration of light still begs the question of what force is acting on what mass. We agree that there is neither force or mass, so it's hard to argue for acceleration.

Observing the light in 3 dimensional space, its path is, indeed, bent.  This is a change in direction, which is an acceleration.  Would you say that if you jump up in the air, you will be accelerated back to the Earth?  It's the same thing.  There is no force acting on you to pull you back to the Earth, but you still say it's acceleration.  This is why I say the light has "apparent" acceleration in gravitational lensing.
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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #288 on: August 16, 2007, 09:46:44 PM »
...
I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
No. Acceleration is the change over time in velocity of an object (with mass).

Reference: Physics Classroom
Acceleration  is a vector quantity which is defined as "the rate at which an object changes its velocity." An object is accelerating if it is changing its velocity.

Sometimes, I've seen poor definitions that omit the object. It's important to remember that Newton's Second Law is the defining statement.

Also, are you sure that you wish to say that no force is acting? How do you have acceleration without force?

The acceleration is only apparent if you are viewing only 3 dimensions.  In spacetime, the light travels a straight line.  No force is acting on the light, just as no force pulls me to the Earth, the force there is what keeps me from following my geodesic to the center of the Earth.  I was wrong, however, to say that the light is accelerated.  It would be more proper to say the light appears to accelerate because we can only view 3 dimensions at a time.  I admit that I was wrong to word it the way I did.

EDIT:  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object. was supposed to make the above point, but it was weakly worded.  Sorry.
Good job. I think we're making progress. My concern now is that saying that light is accelerated. I believe that better statement is: light's path bends under the influence of a gravitational field much like a passing object's path would be changed.

To speak even of "apparent" acceleration of light still begs the question of what force is acting on what mass. We agree that there is neither force or mass, so it's hard to argue for acceleration.

Observing the light in 3 dimensional space, its path is, indeed, bent.  This is a change in direction, which is an acceleration.  Would you say that if you jump up in the air, you will be accelerated back to the Earth?  It's the same thing.  There is no force acting on you to pull you back to the Earth, but you still say it's acceleration.  This is why I say the light has "apparent" acceleration in gravitational lensing.
Time out for some fun... How many straight lines are there from the distant object past the lensing object to the Earth-based observer?
=======================
But still what mass is being accelerated?

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #289 on: August 16, 2007, 09:50:56 PM »
Time out for some fun... How many straight lines are there from the distant object past the lensing object to the Earth-based observer?
=======================
But still what mass is being accelerated?

Infinite...

=======================

As I said before, there is no acceleration in spacetime, but an "apparent" acceleration in our observation of it in 3 dimensions.  The same goes for me being drawn to the Earth.  The only acceleration acting on me now between the Earth and me, is the Earth stopping me from following my geodesic.
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Gulliver

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #290 on: August 16, 2007, 09:56:20 PM »
Time out for some fun... How many straight lines are there from the distant object past the lensing object to the Earth-based observer?
=======================
But still what mass is being accelerated?

Infinite...
Isn't that neat? You can get from A to C just as fast over a very large number of paths. BTW, I'd say that practically it's just very many and theoretically infinite.
Quote
=======================

As I said before, there is no acceleration in spacetime, but an "apparent" acceleration in our observation of it in 3 dimensions.  The same goes for me being drawn to the Earth.  The only acceleration acting on me now between the Earth and me, is the Earth stopping me from following my geodesic.
I do understand this point. I just have a concern about saying even "apparent" acceleration of something that can't be accelerated. But overall, I believe we agree. It's just a matter of preferences over wording.

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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #291 on: August 16, 2007, 10:08:06 PM »
Time out for some fun... How many straight lines are there from the distant object past the lensing object to the Earth-based observer?
=======================
But still what mass is being accelerated?

Infinite...
Isn't that neat? You can get from A to C just as fast over a very large number of paths. BTW, I'd say that practically it's just very many and theoretically infinite.
Quote
=======================

As I said before, there is no acceleration in spacetime, but an "apparent" acceleration in our observation of it in 3 dimensions.  The same goes for me being drawn to the Earth.  The only acceleration acting on me now between the Earth and me, is the Earth stopping me from following my geodesic.
I do understand this point. I just have a concern about saying even "apparent" acceleration of something that can't be accelerated. But overall, I believe we agree. It's just a matter of preferences over wording.

I've seen you say in the past that objects are accelerated to the Earth by 'gravity'.  Since the same thing that causes gravitational lensing causes gravitational attraction, it cannot be a force.  This is directly going back to the "gravity as a force does not exist" argument.  Since you say that gravity does exist as a force, objects accelerate towards the Earth, and gravitational lensing and gravitation of objects are caused by the same thing, I assumed that you were referring to how we observe the objects.
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sokarul

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #292 on: August 16, 2007, 10:41:51 PM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

Reading the above sounded like you were talking down to me and my position, which was that the light is accelerated.  I apologize if this is not what was intended, but it definitely felt like you were trying to prove me wrong on something when I was right (as you just said)

Also, please don't post articles that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I am trying to get you to realize that light cannot be accelerated. Bent? Yes. Accelerated? No. I thought that you knew this. I'm sure that you understand that after reading the link to PI. This means that "acceleration" of light is not a valid part of any logical argument in physics.

Photons are massless. There is no force that acts on a massless object. Without mass and without force, there simply is no acceleration.

I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
This argument has come up before, its a little gray.  Yes changing direction is acceleration but its angular acceleration.  Angular acceleration is different than acceleration and you really cannot call angular acceleration just acceleration.
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skeptical scientist

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #293 on: August 16, 2007, 10:55:46 PM »
Which is why I've been trying to understand Gulliver and sokarul's position; admittedly, I'm still struggling with it.  I'm usually willing to give Engy the benefit of the doubt on these arguments, but something doesn't seem right... that's the reason why I've been asking if there's a source that says it's impossible for acceleration to cause that kind of gravitational lensing.  Is that an assumption based on how Gulliver and sokarul think things should be, or is there documented reason for thinking that?
I'm not sure if anyone has come up with a reference which explicitly says that gravitational lensing is not possible in a uniform gravitational field, but it can easily be inferred from how gravitational lensing works and how light bends in an accelerating reference frame.

Here are two graphs which show the path taken by light rays, first in an inertial reference frame, and second in an accelerating reference frame.



You can see the equations - they're accurate if the accelerating reference frame has constant acceleration in an inertial reference frame, which isn't quite the case with the FE model, which has constant acceleration as felt by people on its surface. However, the change in velocity as the ray travels over the portion of the graph you can see here is small compared to the speed of light, so the graph is close to accurate. The .04 is more or less arbitrary, as it depends on the choice of units - the .04 was chosen so that the curvature is enough to be visible but not so much to violate the assumptions under which the graph is essentially accurate over the visible range.

In the second image, you see that things appear higher than the actually are, because the incident light is at a higher angle relative to the viewer than the object viewed. So more or less, everything merely appears to be higher up than it really is, and only things directly above or below the viewer appear in the same place. These objects appear smaller (if they are directly above) or bigger (if they are directly below) but this effect is very minor because the closer things are to directly above or below the viewer, the smaller the displacement is.

This is therefore unable to explain observed gravitational lensing, such as during a solar eclipse, because during a solar eclipse the sun, while above the observer, appears larger rather than smaller (as it would in a reference frame accelerating towards it) and it only appears larger when it is directly behind the moon, and not otherwise. It is also completely unable to explain something like the animation we saw above.

=======

Change in the direction of an object is definitely just ordinary acceleration, of the usual dv/dt variety. Light can and does accelerate, in the usual way, in a gravitational field. Its speed is constant, but its direction changes, which is in fact an acceleration in the usual sense (in fact, it means the acceleration is orthogonal to the direction of travel). Of course, this is not in accordance with Newton's laws of motion, but Newton's laws of motion fail when relativity comes into play, so when we're talking about photons moving at the speed of light, it's to be expected. And the "objects" being accelerated are the photons which make up light.
-David
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TheEngineer

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #294 on: August 16, 2007, 11:17:44 PM »
Aha! Now we know the root of your misunderstanding. No. The accelerating elevator is definitely not the FE. The light is curved 7 mly away. That's where the elevator would need to be. BTW, as sokarul told you, the FE would be acceleration parallel to the light and unable to curve it.
Bingo!  That assumption, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason this has gone on for 15 pages.  The FE is the 'space elevator'.  The FE's acceleration accounts for the gravitational lensing of the RE's gravitational field. 


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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skeptical scientist

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #295 on: August 16, 2007, 11:46:52 PM »
Aha! Now we know the root of your misunderstanding. No. The accelerating elevator is definitely not the FE. The light is curved 7 mly away. That's where the elevator would need to be. BTW, as sokarul told you, the FE would be acceleration parallel to the light and unable to curve it.
Bingo!  That assumption, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason this has gone on for 15 pages.  The FE is the 'space elevator'.  The FE's acceleration accounts for the gravitational lensing of the RE's gravitational field. 
Right. It just doesn't account for the gravitational lensing of the moon's gravitational field, the gravitational fields of distant galaxies, or any of the other gravitational lensing we observe. And since basically all of the observations of gravitational lensing require some gravity source other than the Earth to do the bending, acceleration really doesn't explain gravitational lensing at all.
-David
E pur si muove!

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Lorcan

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #296 on: August 17, 2007, 12:22:49 AM »
Aha! Now we know the root of your misunderstanding. No. The accelerating elevator is definitely not the FE. The light is curved 7 mly away. That's where the elevator would need to be. BTW, as sokarul told you, the FE would be acceleration parallel to the light and unable to curve it.
Bingo!  That assumption, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason this has gone on for 15 pages.  The FE is the 'space elevator'.  The FE's acceleration accounts for the gravitational lensing of the RE's gravitational field. 
Right. It just doesn't account for the gravitational lensing of the moon's gravitational field, the gravitational fields of distant galaxies, or any of the other gravitational lensing we observe. And since basically all of the observations of gravitational lensing require some gravity source other than the Earth to do the bending, acceleration really doesn't explain gravitational lensing at all.


Correct. This is the point I've been hitting on from the beginning, but one would be a fool to say that this forum is based in any sort of desire for real scientific discourse. Take this 15 page debate, for example...

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sokarul

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #297 on: August 17, 2007, 12:43:39 AM »
Aha! Now we know the root of your misunderstanding. No. The accelerating elevator is definitely not the FE. The light is curved 7 mly away. That's where the elevator would need to be. BTW, as sokarul told you, the FE would be acceleration parallel to the light and unable to curve it.
Bingo!  That assumption, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason this has gone on for 15 pages.  The FE is the 'space elevator'.  The FE's acceleration accounts for the gravitational lensing of the RE's gravitational field. 
It cannot account for all rays of light.  How do you explain the other rays?   

Also its gone on for so long due to your improper use of the EP.

Added: To better explain it.

Say there is a planet with the center of the core sitting at 0,0,0.  The only light that can be explained by acceleration is the light with 0 x, any positive y, and 0 z.  What about all the other light? 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 01:18:47 AM by sokarul »
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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #298 on: August 17, 2007, 06:26:27 AM »
Aha! Now we know the root of your misunderstanding. No. The accelerating elevator is definitely not the FE. The light is curved 7 mly away. That's where the elevator would need to be. BTW, as sokarul told you, the FE would be acceleration parallel to the light and unable to curve it.
Bingo!  That assumption, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason this has gone on for 15 pages.  The FE is the 'space elevator'.  The FE's acceleration accounts for the gravitational lensing of the RE's gravitational field. 
It cannot account for all rays of light.  How do you explain the other rays?   

Also its gone on for so long due to your improper use of the EP.

Added: To better explain it.

Say there is a planet with the center of the core sitting at 0,0,0.  The only light that can be explained by acceleration is the light with 0 x, any positive y, and 0 z.  What about all the other light? 

Are you honestly still on about this, when TheEngineer has just made a 100% clear explanation of what he meant?
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CommonCents

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Re: My Problem with Universal Acceleration
« Reply #299 on: August 17, 2007, 06:29:06 AM »
Isn't the light accelerated towards the massive body, which results in lensing?
If you mean a direction change and not a speed change, then, yes, gravity curves light.

So then you agree, acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.  I'm glad.
I assume that you're too smart to believe what you wrote and are just having a little, very little, joke. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to correct your error.

Hhmm, gravitation from the massive body makes the light accelerate.  This acceleration is what causes the lensing...so acceleration perfectly accounts for gravitational lensing, and is in fact required for it.
Your error is straightforward. You've confused cause with effect. The cause is gravitation. The effects are bending of light and gravitational lensing. So you have gravitation, not acceleration, accounting for gravitational lensing.

But you knew that. Do try to contribute to the discussion and not troll. My "iggy" list doesn't need someone as smart as you are on it, but if I must...

I have not confused anything.
I am contributing to the discussion by putting out my view on what TheEngineer said.
Thanks for the compliment.
I do not know what your "iggy" list is, nor do I really care if I'm on it.
So as smart as you are, you want to go on record as saying that light, massless as it is, is being accelerated by the gravitation of a massive body. So be it. I really had hoped that you were joking.

Reference: Perimeter Institute

Reading the above sounded like you were talking down to me and my position, which was that the light is accelerated.  I apologize if this is not what was intended, but it definitely felt like you were trying to prove me wrong on something when I was right (as you just said)

Also, please don't post articles that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I am trying to get you to realize that light cannot be accelerated. Bent? Yes. Accelerated? No. I thought that you knew this. I'm sure that you understand that after reading the link to PI. This means that "acceleration" of light is not a valid part of any logical argument in physics.

Photons are massless. There is no force that acts on a massless object. Without mass and without force, there simply is no acceleration.

I never said a force acts on them.  Also, your article doesn't say that light doesn't accelerate, but that Newton's Second Law can't apply to photons.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time, right?  Since velocity has both speed and direction, changing direction is acceleration.  Light is accelerated by the mass of the object, much the same way we are accelerated by the mass of an object.
This argument has come up before, its a little gray.  Yes changing direction is acceleration but its angular acceleration.  Angular acceleration is different than acceleration and you really cannot call angular acceleration just acceleration.

Read Skeptical Scientist's post and this should be made clear to you.  (Thanks Skeptical Scientist!)
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