Where did all the clouds go?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2007, 07:21:15 PM »
Lets be frank Tom, they saw an Ice Shelf and you know it. Got any real opinions for us?

Well yes, the Ice Wall is also known as the series of Ice Shelves which surround the coast of Antarctica. That is what the Ice Wall has been for the last 150 years of FES history.

Read Earth Not a Globe. Dr. Rowbotham describes a 150 foot wall of ice at the coast of Antarctica. He does not describe a 40,000 foot tall Ice Wall.

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2007, 07:37:50 PM »
wow.. FE has only been around for 150 years? or are you saying the Ice wall has only been there for 150 years? now I'm really confused, Tom
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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2007, 07:46:39 PM »
wow.. FE has only been around for 150 years? or are you saying the Ice wall has only been there for 150 years? now I'm really confused, Tom

He do be saying that the Flat Earth Conspiracy do have been around for 150 years. Don Carnage himself is only 39 years younger than your bloody conspiracy! My father did chew the eyes of the man who first started the blasphemy!
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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2007, 07:54:08 PM »
Let's prove dogplatter wrong, again. Clouds extend to 50,000 feet. Reference: Wikipedia

What does that have to do with the Ice Wall being 40,000 feet? It's an Ice Wall, not an Ice Ceiling.
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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2007, 08:09:24 PM »
Let's prove dogplatter wrong, again. Clouds extend to 50,000 feet. Reference: Wikipedia

What does that have to do with the Ice Wall being 40,000 feet? It's an Ice Wall, not an Ice Ceiling.
dogplatter said no clouds were higher than the Ice Wall. You are the one who talks about accurate communication, right?

You're all wrong.

The Ice Wall is 40000 feet tall, the Earth does not have "minute" gravity because gravity doesn't exist, and clouds are not higher than the Ice Wall.

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2007, 08:10:35 PM »
He was saying that since the Ice wall wouldnt protect all of the clouds, then the clouds would eventually go out beyond the wall.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2007, 08:11:03 PM »
dogplatter said no clouds were higher than the Ice Wall. You are the one who talks about accurate communication, right?

Well, clearly he is wrong in that statement. And my point still stands.
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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2007, 08:12:32 PM »
dogplatter said no clouds were higher than the Ice Wall. You are the one who talks about accurate communication, right?

Well, clearly he is wrong in that statement. And my point still stands.
You're right, of course. All we can conclude is that you asked a stupid question.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2007, 08:13:50 PM »
You're right, of course. All we can conclude is that you asked a stupid question.

I didn't know his claim included the height of clouds. I thought you were trying to prove the Ice Wall was garbage by proving clouds exist higher than it.
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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2007, 08:15:26 PM »
Divito. you claim to be an REer, so could you not just stay with that, rather than arguing with the people on your side? Its kinda annoying, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so
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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2007, 08:17:43 PM »
Divito. you claim to be an REer, so could you not just stay with that, rather than arguing with the people on your side? Its kinda annoying, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so

There would be no debate if I stayed as an REer all the time. I have all the evidence on my side. Where is the fun in that?

Plus it's a lot easier to disprove and pick at the arguments of REers because of all the mistakes they make.
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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2007, 08:20:16 PM »
Which are nothing compared to the mistakes of FEers. There are enough idiots who are on FEs side, and we dont need any other people just pretending for the sake of argument. you can correct REers for mistakes, but taking a side you dont believe is just annoying and ignorant
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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2007, 08:26:21 PM »
Which are nothing compared to the mistakes of FEers. There are enough idiots who are on FEs side, and we dont need any other people just pretending for the sake of argument. you can correct REers for mistakes, but taking a side you dont believe is just annoying and ignorant

The only FEers on here are Dogplatter and Tom. And Tom doesn't even really count.

And I'm not "taking a side." Making that assumption is annoying and ignorant.

Refer to this post for my purpose: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=16037.20
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 08:33:30 PM by divito »
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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2007, 08:30:00 PM »
Which are nothing compared to the mistakes of FEers. There are enough idiots who are on FEs side, and we dont need any other people just pretending for the sake of argument. you can correct REers for mistakes, but taking a side you dont believe is just annoying and ignorant

Can someone call pest control?

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James

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2007, 10:15:32 PM »
Let's prove dogplatter wrong, again. Clouds extend to 50,000 feet. Reference: Wikipedia

Wikipedia isn't a legitimate source for this for many reasons: It doesn't prove that statement, merely re-affirms it. That's as if I were to use the argument "Earth is flat. Reference: theflatearthsociety.org". What's more, wikipedia is editable by literally anyone in the world, meaning it has absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of accuracy. You wouldn't be able to cite wikipedia in a university thesis, you shouldn't be able to here.
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Jimmy Crackhorn

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2007, 10:27:24 PM »
Let's prove dogplatter wrong, again. Clouds extend to 50,000 feet. Reference: Wikipedia

Wikipedia isn't a legitimate source for this for many reasons: It doesn't prove that statement, merely re-affirms it. That's as if I were to use the argument "Earth is flat. Reference: theflatearthsociety.org". What's more, wikipedia is editable by literally anyone in the world, meaning it has absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of accuracy. You wouldn't be able to cite wikipedia in a university thesis, you shouldn't be able to here.
This isn't entirely true. As long as the article isn't a stub, you can't write anything you like and expect it to stay up there for more than 5 minutes. Try it yourself.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2007, 10:38:42 PM »
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As long as the article isn't a stub, you can't write anything you like and expect it to stay up there for more than 5 minutes. Try it yourself.

If I write that the clouds are a maximum of 40,000 miles in height will Wikipedia commission a high altitude military jet to confirm or deny my statement?

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Jimmy Crackhorn

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2007, 10:45:36 PM »
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As long as the article isn't a stub, you can't write anything you like and expect it to stay up there for more than 5 minutes. Try it yourself.

If I write that the clouds are a maximum of 40,000 miles in height will Wikipedia commission a high altitude military jet to confirm or deny my statement?
He said anyone can write anything they want on there. You can't. I might have misunderstood him, though.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2007, 11:06:22 PM »
YOU CANNOT JUST TYPE ANYTHING YOU WANT AND EXPECT IT TO STAY THERE. TRY FOR YOURSELF.

Why is it so hard to understand?

Yes, theoretically, anyone can edit something on Wikipedia. However, if you do not provide sources that refute already published information, anything you try and edit will either not work (given that several articles are locked), or it'll be found and edited within 5-10 minutes. The mods at Wikipedia and the subsequent experts they use are very good at their jobs.

Trying to use that argument as grounds for Wikipedia being unreliable is awful.
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Jimmy Crackhorn

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2007, 11:17:18 PM »
YOU CANNOT JUST TYPE ANYTHING YOU WANT AND EXPECT IT TO STAY THERE. TRY FOR YOURSELF.

Why is it so hard to understand?

Yes, theoretically, anyone can edit something on Wikipedia. However, if you do not provide sources that refute already published information, anything you try and edit will either not work (given that several articles are locked), or it'll be found and edited within 5-10 minutes. The mods at Wikipedia and the subsequent experts they use are very good at their jobs.

Trying to use that argument as grounds for Wikipedia being unreliable is awful.
You're usually a calm guy. Out of everything, I didn't expect wikipedia to piss you off.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2007, 12:05:03 AM »
You're usually a calm guy. Out of everything, I didn't expect wikipedia to piss you off.

Usually I am. However, when people use their opinions or ignorance as fact, it irritates me. And this isn't the first time I've stated the very basics of Wikipedia.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2007, 01:06:58 AM »
Let's prove dogplatter wrong, again. Clouds extend to 50,000 feet. Reference: Wikipedia

What does that have to do with the Ice Wall being 40,000 feet? It's an Ice Wall, not an Ice Ceiling.

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Fokakya

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2007, 05:20:02 AM »
Yes, clouds can go over the 150 foot Ice Wall. But only so far. After a distance into the perpetual tundra beyond the spotlight of the sun temperatures decrease to a point where barometric pressure is practically non-existent. And since winds need to travel from high pressure to low pressure to move the clouds, there will be no winds. Ergo, if there was an edge of the earth somewhere beyond the Ice Wall, the atmosphere would not be swept off it. Ergo the clouds will not float off the edge of the earth.

There is a major flaw in this argument. As temperature increases, atmospheric pressure DECREASES. Cold air is more dense and therefore creates a higher pressure. This is why cold air sinks and warm air rises. This is the basis for the notion of convection and the entire driving force behind earth's wind and weather.

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2007, 06:37:27 AM »
slippery slippery slopes as far as the eye can see
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2007, 10:18:13 AM »
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There is a major flaw in this argument. As temperature increases, atmospheric pressure DECREASES. Cold air is more dense and therefore creates a higher pressure. This is why cold air sinks and warm air rises. This is the basis for the notion of convection and the entire driving force behind earth's wind and weather.

This is incorrect. According to Gay-Lussac's Law as temperature increases, pressure increases. Subsequently, as temperature decreases, pressure decreases.

Summarily, the pressure of a fixed amount of gas at fixed volume is directly proportional to its temperature in kelvins. As a gas expands, the average distance between molecules grows. Because of intermolecular attractive forces, expansion causes an increase in the potential energy of the gas. If no external work is extracted in the process (“free expansion”) and no heat is transferred, the total energy of the gas remains the same because of the conservation of energy. The increase in potential energy thus means a decrease in kinetic energy and therefore in temperature. This relation can be expressed mathematically as p/T= constant.

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Asked and answered. The Sun heats the earth unequally and constantly renews the pressure imbalance. That's what makes the weather. Once you invoke your infinite disc, you fail. The atmosphere must move toward the freezing areas beyond the edge and freeze.

The sun heats the earth causing high pressures at the equator, yes. But we still have a situation in which the high pressures of the equator are not flowing into and equalizing the low temperatures of the North Pole. The North Pole remains low pressured despite it being surrounded by high pressures.

Since Gay-Lussac's Law of gases demands that pressure stay proportional to its temperature we see that the low temperatures of the North Pole keeps the polar environment low pressured. Ergo, we see beyond doubt that your "rebuttal" is poor and meaningless, that it goes against modern gas law physics.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 10:23:48 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2007, 10:28:32 AM »
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You're all wrong.

The Ice Wall is 40000 feet tall, the Earth does not have "minute" gravity because gravity doesn't exist, and clouds are not higher than the Ice Wall.

Hence we see that an undiscovered 40,000 foot tall Ice Wall is not necessary, that the atmosphere on the Flat Earth can be explained with the apparent and observable. That the Ice Wall is really just the collection of 150 foot high Ice Sheets which surrounds the Antarctic coast as described by Sir James Clark Ross and every single Antarctic explorer.

The Flat Earth can be finite, and the atmosphere can be contained by vast decreasing gradients of temperature beyond the Ice Wall. After the temperatures have decreased to a sufficient degree upon the pitch black freezing tundra beyond the spotlight of the sun, whether it be hundreds of thousands or millions of miles beyond the coast of the Ice Wall, the earth can end without the atmosphere leaking out into space.

No hypothetical 40,000 foot Ice Wall is necessary to contain the atmosphere. No guards are necessary to protect that fictional wall. The atmosphere is contained by simple laws of physics.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 12:44:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2007, 11:04:02 AM »
The atmosphere is contained by simple laws of physics.

Can you elaborate on this?

I think it's been well-covered on these forums how the notion of the atmosphere not leaking into space goes against the laws of physics.  On what do you base your claim that the atmosphere is actually contained by "simple laws of physics"?  If they're simple, I'm sure you can put it in easy terms that we can all understand.  ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2007, 11:36:56 AM »
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Can you elaborate on this?

We can agree that beyond the antarctic coast into the pitch black uncharted tundra, beyond the spotlight of the sun, that temperatures will gradually decrease, correct?

Well, from basic physics we know that gases have various properties that we can observe with our senses, including the gas pressure (p), temperature (T), mass, and the volume that contains the gas. Careful, scientific observation has determined that these variables are related to one another and that the values of these properties determine the state of the gas.

p/T= constant

In a scientific manner, we can fix any two of the four primary properties and study the nature of the relationship between the other two by varying one and observing the variation of the other.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing pressure on temperature. The pressure can be changed by adding or removing green weights from the top of the red piston. Ergo when we change the pressure of an environment we change the temperature.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing temperature on pressure. The temperature is changed by adding heat from the torch. The volume is held constant with the piston. Ergo when we change the temperature of an environment we change the pressure.

Hence, we see that in an environment with zero temperature there is zero pressure. With zero pressure, winds cannot move from one area to the next. Zero pressure is a vacuum.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 11:55:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2007, 11:40:34 AM »
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You're all wrong.

The Ice Wall is 40000 feet tall, the Earth does not have "minute" gravity because gravity doesn't exist, and clouds are not higher than the Ice Wall.

Hence we see that an undiscovered 40,000 foot tall Ice Wall is not necessary, that the atmosphere on the Flat Earth can be explained with the apparent and observable. That the Ice Wall is really just the collection of 150 foot high Ice Sheets which surrounds the Antarctic coast as described by Sir James Clark Ross and every single Antarctic explorer.

The Flat Earth can be finite, and the atmosphere can be contained by vast decreasing gradients of temperature beyond the Ice Wall. After the temperatures have decreased to a sufficient degree upon the pitch black freezing tundra beyond the spotlight of the sun, whether it be hundreds of thousands or millions of miles beyond the coast of the Ice Wall, the earth can end without the atmosphere leaking out into space.

No hypothetical 40,000 foot Ice Wall is necessary to contain the atmosphere. No guards are necessary to protect that fictional wall. The atmosphere is contained by simple laws of physics.

Please change the FAQ accordingly.
This is just stupid. You've stated that for a given STP volume of air, the increasing its temperature gives higher pressure. We know that gas moves from high to low pressure whenever it can. You've argued that beyond the Ice Wall that the temperature is very low. Hence the atmosphere will move over the Ice Wall. To argue that the gradients is too large is to argue that water won't flow over a cliff because the cliff is too steep. We've been over this many times. Your argument fails miserably.

Re: Where did all the clouds go?
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2007, 11:43:21 AM »
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Can you elaborate on this?

We can agree that beyond the antarctic coast into the pitch black uncharted tundra, beyond the spotlight of the sun, that temperatures will gradually decrease, correct?

Well, from basic physics we know that gases have various properties that we can observe with our senses, including the gas pressure (p), temperature (T), mass, and the volume that contains the gas. Careful, scientific observation has determined that these variables are related to one another and that the values of these properties determine the state of the gas.

p/T= constant

In a scientific manner, we can fix any two of the four primary properties and study the nature of the relationship between the other two by varying one and observing the variation of the other.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing pressure on temperature. The pressure can be changed by adding or removing green weights from the top of the red piston. Ergo when we change the pressure of an environment we change the temperature.

In the following schematic we see the effect of changing temperature on pressure. The temperature is changed by adding heat from the torch. The volume is held constant with the piston. Ergo when we change the temperature of an environment we change the pressure.

Hence, we see that in an environment with zero temperature there is zero pressure. With zero pressure, winds cannot move from one area to the next. Zero pressure is a vacuum.
The last statement is wrong. Nature abhors a vacuum. The atmosphere will move towards the "zero pressure" carrying its warmth with it. Your explanation is simply miserably wrong.