Creation

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divito the truthist

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Creation
« on: July 05, 2007, 08:36:27 PM »
This is pretty old, but I figured I'd throw together the paraphrasing of Asimov's "The Last Question" from Kaku's "Hyperspace" to get people's thoughts on it. I honestly think it's one of the most interesting stories and interpretations. Really makes you think, or at least it made me ponder some things.

"The story begins in the year 2061, when a colossal computer has solved the earth's energy problems by designing a massive solar satellite in space that can beam the sun's energy back to earth. The AC (analog computer) is so large and advanced that its technicians have only the vaguest idea of how it operates. On a $5 bet, two drunken technicians ask the computer whether the sun's eventual death can be avoided or, for that matter, whether the universe must inevitably die. After quietly mulling over this question, the AC responds: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINFUL ANSWER.

Centuries into the future, the AC has solved the problem of hyper-space travel, and humans begin colonizing thousands of star systems. The AC is so large that is occupies several hundred square miles on each planet and so complex that it maintains and services itself. A young family is rocketing through hyperspace, unerringly guided by the AC, in search of a new star system to colonize. When the father casually mentions that the stars must eventually die, the children become hysterical. "Don't let the stars die," plead the children. To calm the children, he asks the AC if entropy can be reversed. "See," reassures the father, reading the AC's response, the AC can solve everything. He comforts them by saying, "It will take care of everything when the time comes, so don't worry." He never tells the children that the AC actually prints out: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

Thousands of years into the future, the Galaxy itself has been colonized. The AC has solved the problem of immortality and harnesses the energy of the Galaxy, but must find new galaxies for colonization. The AC is so complex that it is long past the point where anyone understands how it works. It continually redesigns and improves its own circuits. Two members of the Galactic Council, each hundreds of years old, debate the urgent question of finding new galactic energy sources, and wonder if the universe itself is running down. Can entropy be reversed? they ask. The AC responds: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

Millions of years into the future, humanity has spread across the uncountable galaxies of the universe. The AC has solved the problem of releasing the mind from the body, and human minds are free to explore the vastness of millions of galaxies, with their bodies safely stored on some long forgotten planet. Two minds accidentally meet each other in outer space, and casually wonder where among the uncountable galaxies humans originated. The AC, which is now so large that most of it has to be housed in hyperspace, responds by instantly transporting them to an obscure galaxy. They are disappointed. The galaxy is so ordinary, like millions of other galaxies, and the original star has long since died. The two minds become anxious because billions of stars in the heavens are slowly meeting the same fate. The two minds ask, can the death of the universe itself be avoided? From hyperspace, the AC responds: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

Billions of years into the future, humanity consists of a trillion, trillion, trillion immortal bodies each cared for by automatons. Humanity's collective mind, which is free to roam anywhere in the universe at will, eventually fuses into a single mind, which in turn fuses with the AC itself. It no longer makes sense to ask what the AC is made of, or where in hyperspace it really is. "The universe is dying," thinks Man, collectively. One by one, as the stars and galaxies cease to generate energy, temperatures throughout the universe approach absolute zero. Man desperately asks if the cold and darkness slowly engulfing the galaxies mean its eventual death. From hyperspace, the AC answers: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

When Man asks the AC to collect the necessary data, it responds: I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT.

A timeless interval passes, and the universe has finally reached its ultimate death. From hyperspace, the AC spends an eternity collecting data and contemplating the final question. At last, the AC discovers the solution, even though there is no longer anyone to give the answer. The AC carefully formulates a program, and then begins the process of reversing Chaos. It collects cold, interstellar gas, brings together the dead stars, until a gigantic ball is created.

Then when the labors are done, from hyperspace the AC thunders: LET THERE BE LIGHT!

And then there was light-

And on the seventh day, He rested."
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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 10:47:44 PM »
Read it you lazy bastards!!!
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ChristianMan16

Re: Creation
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 11:44:48 PM »
You know that's really disrespecting to Christian's don't you?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2007, 11:48:38 PM »
You know that's really disrespecting to Christian's don't you?

Your point?
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ChristianMan16

Re: Creation
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2007, 11:53:00 PM »
It's not nice to Disrespect people no matter their beliefs...didn't you mother or father teach you manners?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2007, 11:59:29 PM »
It's not nice to Disrespect people no matter their beliefs...didn't you mother or father teach you manners?

Niceness is subjective. And yes, they taught me manners.

Their beliefs, I do respect. I do not however, have respect for their actions in regard to organized religion.

Let's get back on topic and discuss the great OP.
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ChristianMan16

Re: Creation
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2007, 12:03:28 AM »
WHATEVER

Re: Creation
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 12:38:10 AM »
You know that's really disrespecting to Christian's don't you?

Oh please. People are infatuated with this notion that religion is somehow untouchable, or that people's religious beliefs should be respected no matter what. I fully maintain that everyone has a right to have their own beliefs free from persecution and opression. However, respect is another matter. If you cannot justify your beliefs, if you cannot argue them intelligently then I am under no obligation to respect your beliefs at all. Religious beliefs should be subject to the same scrutiny that any other beliefs are subject to, they should not be tip-toed around politely simply because they're religious. I was raised a Christian, and was deeply religious at one point, so I am well aquanited with Christian arguments and justification, and in particular with their glaring errors and fallacies.

Anyway, to the OP:

Brilliant! I love it, and I wish that I would have come across it sooner. I have heard of the general idea before - that man ultimatelly evolves into God and initiates his own creation thus continuing a neverending cycle. It was not expressed as elegantly as this however. A clever little idea. Makes me think of just how many profound questions we have no answers to. ("God did it" is not an adequate answer btw). Thanks for posting that.
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 12:46:20 AM »
I love it also. Kaku did a great job with his synopsis. The idea is also top-notch.

The actual story can be viewed here:

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Creation
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 03:11:04 AM »
Are there then an infinitete number of ACs as the humans in the next reality create a new AC which grows until it becomes 'god' too or does the 2nd AC merge with the original AC which actually add to it's vastness which will eventually make it infinitely powerful;

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Re: Creation
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 03:34:09 AM »
It's not disrespecting. Explain how it is.

I like that passage, very cool. Dunno if the science holds up, but still very cool. Maybe that's how it happened.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Creation
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 03:39:19 AM »
It's not disrespecting religion at all,the god is still GOD in the conventional sense, it claims creation happened and akes sense when you consider that Jesus was called the 'Son of Man' a couple of times.

It reminds me of my old Philosophy lessons on the 'nature of God' (Taught by a Jewish guy who claimed his fantasy was to fly over a crowded city in a helicopter with a machine-gun...

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beast

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Re: Creation
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2007, 09:22:02 AM »
All Christians please fuck off and die, so you can go to heaven, and the people who believe that this is our only chance at life don't have to see the world held back by your idiotic superstitions. 

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Trekky0623

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Re: Creation
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2007, 09:54:48 AM »
Ooooh, I like that.  Very interesting read.

Re: Creation
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 10:09:36 AM »
I thought it was rather interesting, as well.

But, I just don't get something.... the concept of hyperspace in this story.
Of course, no one REALLY understands it, because we have no clue whether or not it exists, but if it did...
I'd pose the question(s); Doesn't the big bang create all matter and planes of existence? And eventually all matter and time as we know will condense back into an infinite dense point? So, therefore, how could the AC continue to "exist" if all other matter, as we know it, doesn't? How does hyperspace still exist?

I know it's just a story and whatnot, and it has an interesting notion, but this was just something that was itching my brain and I had to scratch.
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Re: Creation
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2007, 10:20:24 AM »
I thought it was rather interesting, as well.

But, I just don't get something.... the concept of hyperspace in this story.
Of course, no one REALLY understands it, because we have no clue whether or not it exists, but if it did...
I'd pose the question(s); Doesn't the big bang create all matter and planes of existence? And eventually all matter and time as we know will condense back into an infinite dense point? So, therefore, how could the AC continue to "exist" if all other matter, as we know it, doesn't? How does hyperspace still exist?

I know it's just a story and whatnot, and it has an interesting notion, but this was just something that was itching my brain and I had to scratch.

I guess it really depends on how one would define hyperspace. However, in the context of this story, it would seem as if hyperspace is outside of spacetime and our universe as a whole. It is completelly removed from our universe in any way conceivable, it is not a plane of existance within it, but rather removed from it (Maybe it exists in an "area" between an infinite sea of parallel universes). The AC continues to "exist" because it is neither matter nor energy. What it is and what it isn't is completelly beyond Man's understanding as well (Man of course referring to the collective consciousness of all the beings in the universe at the end of the story). That too is an interesting thought as well. Man is presumably the ultimate consciousness, tanscending all matter, master of every plane of existance within the universe yet it is still ultimatelly limited by the Universe within which it exists, such that even this ultimate cosciousness could no longer truly grasp the AC anymore. LoL anyway.. the whole thing can really make your head spin.
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

Re: Creation
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2007, 10:27:50 AM »
Are there then an infinitete number of ACs as the humans in the next reality create a new AC which grows until it becomes 'god' too or does the 2nd AC merge with the original AC which actually add to it's vastness which will eventually make it infinitely powerful;

Well presumably the AC may already be infinitelly powerful. Or then again it may not. However, at the end of the story the AC transcends the universe itself, such that even the collective mind of humankind (Man) can no longer comprehend its nature. One might presume that any future ACs created in the second universe are unable to interact with the 'original' AC in any meaningful way, perhaps until the very instant that the universe ends. And even then the AC exists outside of any concept of matter or distinctive quantities so the concept of two ACs merging may be utterly meaningless outside the context of the universe which humans inhabit. In fact there is nothing to say that the first AC was really the first to begin with, maybe it was the latest in an infinite cycle. Also, life in the second universe might take a different evolutionary path, and humans as they existed the first time around might never exist again.

Or the AC could grow utterly bored with its existance and just decide to cease existing, i dunno lol.
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

Re: Creation
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2007, 10:29:30 AM »
I thought it was rather interesting, as well.

But, I just don't get something.... the concept of hyperspace in this story.
Of course, no one REALLY understands it, because we have no clue whether or not it exists, but if it did...
I'd pose the question(s); Doesn't the big bang create all matter and planes of existence? And eventually all matter and time as we know will condense back into an infinite dense point? So, therefore, how could the AC continue to "exist" if all other matter, as we know it, doesn't? How does hyperspace still exist?

I know it's just a story and whatnot, and it has an interesting notion, but this was just something that was itching my brain and I had to scratch.

I guess it really depends on how one would define hyperspace. However, in the context of this story, it would seem as if hyperspace is outside of spacetime and our universe as a whole. It is completelly removed from our universe in any way conceivable, it is not a plane of existance within it, but rather removed from it (Maybe it exists in an "area" between an infinite sea of parallel universes). The AC continues to "exist" because it is neither matter nor energy. What it is and what it isn't is completelly beyond Man's understanding as well (Man of course referring to the collective consciousness of all the beings in the universe at the end of the story). That too is an interesting thought as well. Man is presumably the ultimate consciousness, tanscending all matter, master of every plane of existance within the universe yet it is still ultimatelly limited by the Universe within which it exists, such that even this ultimate cosciousness could no longer truly grasp the AC anymore. LoL anyway.. the whole thing can really make your head spin.

Hahaha, yes it can make your head spin.

Whatever hyperspace is, or meant to be in this story, it still makes ya think. Which is great.
I guess it's just trying to grasp the notion of hyperspace comparable, and in relation, to other planes of existence, which makes it difficult.
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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2007, 10:34:09 AM »
In the actual story, this is said:

"Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man."

So, something causes matter to essentially be destroyed. He doesn't speculate on what unfortunately, but I don't believe it to be entirely necessary.

Kaku, in his book says that "As our home universe is crushed beyond recognition, temperatures will rise violently, creating yet another Big Bang."

If that panned out, it would seem that an AC isn't necessary and the universe would create itself over and over again. Mastering hyperspace travel, if possible, would be the only way to escape the fate of any civilization still around. Hyperspace is mainly the idea of the having more than three spatial dimensions. Whether these can exist or are habitable in some way, are similar to parallel universes and such.

As for the AC, this story supplies us with a supernatural being in a sense, that is the creator and sits on the 'sidelines' and does nothing. All it did was technically answer the last question by acting. No more input wouldn't require it to do anything.
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Re: Creation
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2007, 10:37:46 AM »
I thought it was rather interesting, as well.

But, I just don't get something.... the concept of hyperspace in this story.
Of course, no one REALLY understands it, because we have no clue whether or not it exists, but if it did...
I'd pose the question(s); Doesn't the big bang create all matter and planes of existence? And eventually all matter and time as we know will condense back into an infinite dense point? So, therefore, how could the AC continue to "exist" if all other matter, as we know it, doesn't? How does hyperspace still exist?

I know it's just a story and whatnot, and it has an interesting notion, but this was just something that was itching my brain and I had to scratch.

I guess it really depends on how one would define hyperspace. However, in the context of this story, it would seem as if hyperspace is outside of spacetime and our universe as a whole. It is completelly removed from our universe in any way conceivable, it is not a plane of existance within it, but rather removed from it (Maybe it exists in an "area" between an infinite sea of parallel universes). The AC continues to "exist" because it is neither matter nor energy. What it is and what it isn't is completelly beyond Man's understanding as well (Man of course referring to the collective consciousness of all the beings in the universe at the end of the story). That too is an interesting thought as well. Man is presumably the ultimate consciousness, tanscending all matter, master of every plane of existance within the universe yet it is still ultimatelly limited by the Universe within which it exists, such that even this ultimate cosciousness could no longer truly grasp the AC anymore. LoL anyway.. the whole thing can really make your head spin.

Hahaha, yes it can make your head spin.

Whatever hyperspace is, or meant to be in this story, it still makes ya think. Which is great.
I guess it's just trying to grasp the notion of hyperspace comparable, and in relation, to other planes of existence, which makes it difficult.

Haha indeed. I think the notion of other planes of existence (other than our own of course) or the various aspects of our universe are difficult enough to grasp on their own, nevermind the supposedly trans-universal hyperspace. The human mind did not evolve to intuitivelly grasp many of the strange realities of our universe (i.e. relativity, quantum theory etc). It is nearly impossibe for us, for instance, to visualize the assumptions quantum theory needs to make. However it would be interesting to see if a child's brain, exposed to simulations and the realities of quantum theory from birth, could grow up to intuitivelly grasp it (i.e. might the brain be versatile enough to adapt to new concepts of reality if properly stimulated). I remember Richard Dawkins once toying with the idea.. anyway, food for thought.
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

Re: Creation
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2007, 10:38:38 AM »
As for the AC, this story supplies us with a supernatural being in a sense, that is the creator and sits on the 'sidelines' and does nothing. All it did was technically answer the last question by acting. No more input wouldn't require it to do anything.

Ah, Deism of sorts. I like it.
Quote
Quote
Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

Re: Creation
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2007, 10:41:08 AM »
anyway, food for thought.

Food for thought, indeed.
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Re: Creation
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2007, 10:42:01 AM »
Agreed. I am not a lazy bastard, I did read your first post about the AC computer, rather funny, like it a lot.
You have the honour of being the first post I'v replied to on this ever...

Incidentally do you believe the World or the Earth is actually flat or not?

I recall a story by Arthur C. CLarke about a 3D mobius strip world... with the wall at the equator leading back to itself... rather good, but you've probably read it...

Thanks for reading this...

CK

Re: Creation
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2007, 10:47:36 AM »
So... when's DigitalC gonna come around and steal AC's glory?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2007, 10:51:04 AM »
In the actual story, this is said:

"Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man."

So, something causes matter to essentially be destroyed. He doesn't speculate on what unfortunately, but I don't believe it to be entirely necessary.

Kaku, in his book says that "As our home universe is crushed beyond recognition, temperatures will rise violently, creating yet another Big Bang."

If that panned out, it would seem that an AC isn't necessary and the universe would create itself over and over again. Mastering hyperspace travel, if possible, would be the only way to escape the fate of any civilization still around. Hyperspace is mainly the idea of the having more than three spatial dimensions. Whether these can exist or are habitable in some way, are similar to parallel universes and such.

Kaku is assuming a Big Crunch to end the universe, in which entropy is reversed and rather than becoming more and more chaotic (as happens as the universe is expanding), the universe becomes more and more ordered until it closes back into a singularity.  From this there is another Big Bang.  The story seems to be assuming something more like a Big Freeze or heat death to end the universe, in which the universe never stops expanding and everything eventually dies out as the universe reaches a period of maximum entropy.  The AC wouldn't be necessary to start things back up again with the Big Crunch theory since the universe would just keep starting over with a new Big Bang every few eons, but it would be necessary with the Big Freeze theory.

Kaku is using the story to illustrate that since the universe must end someday mankind's only hope of survival would be to master hyperspace, which would hold true no matter how the universe ends.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2007, 11:09:21 AM »
Kaku is assuming a Big Crunch to end the universe, in which entropy is reversed and rather than becoming more and more chaotic (as happens as the universe is expanding), the universe becomes more and more ordered until it closes back into a singularity.  From this there is another Big Bang.  The story seems to be assuming something more like a Big Freeze or heat death to end the universe, in which the universe never stops expanding and everything eventually dies out as the universe reaches a period of maximum entropy.  The AC wouldn't be necessary to start things back up again with the Big Crunch theory since the universe would just keep starting over with a new Big Bang every few eons, but it would be necessary with the Big Freeze theory.

Kaku is using the story to illustrate that since the universe must end someday mankind's only hope of survival would be to master hyperspace, which would hold true no matter how the universe ends.

That quote from Kaku is actually from a completely different section of the book. Kaku explains later that we can't know if the universe will continue to expand, or eventually contract until they figure out a way to account for dark matter.

The Asimov paraphrase is after he discussed the colonizing of the universe in the chapter "The Fate of the Universe" with the ideas of Barrow and Tipler. Their ideas were somewhat similar to what was portrayed in the story.
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Re: Creation
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2007, 11:14:23 AM »
Kaku is assuming a Big Crunch to end the universe, in which entropy is reversed and rather than becoming more and more chaotic (as happens as the universe is expanding), the universe becomes more and more ordered until it closes back into a singularity.  From this there is another Big Bang.  The story seems to be assuming something more like a Big Freeze or heat death to end the universe, in which the universe never stops expanding and everything eventually dies out as the universe reaches a period of maximum entropy.  The AC wouldn't be necessary to start things back up again with the Big Crunch theory since the universe would just keep starting over with a new Big Bang every few eons, but it would be necessary with the Big Freeze theory.

Kaku is using the story to illustrate that since the universe must end someday mankind's only hope of survival would be to master hyperspace, which would hold true no matter how the universe ends.

That quote from Kaku is actually from a completely different section of the book. Kaku explains later that we can't know if the universe will continue to expand, or eventually contract until they figure out a way to account for dark matter.

The Asimov paraphrase is after he discussed the colonizing of the universe in the chapter "The Fate of the Universe" with the ideas of Barrow and Tipler. Their ideas were somewhat similar to what was portrayed in the story.

Right, I remember all that (I bet I'm the only other person here who's read the book).  My point is that the whole exercise was to demonstrate that in order for mankind to continue to exist after the universe ends (however that happens, and when I said Kaku was assuming a Big Crunch I was just referring to the quote you provided), we must master hyperspace so we can escape this universe.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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divito the truthist

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Re: Creation
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2007, 11:16:20 AM »
Right, I remember all that (I bet I'm the only other person here who's read the book).  My point is that the whole exercise was to demonstrate that in order for mankind to continue to exist after the universe ends (however that happens, and when I said Kaku was assuming a Big Crunch I was just referring to the quote you provided), we must master hyperspace so we can escape this universe.

I'm booking my ticket now.
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Midnight

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Re: Creation
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2007, 01:42:55 PM »
You know that's really disrespecting to Christian's don't you?

Fuck the trolls who hide in plain sight.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

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Skeptical ATM

Re: Creation
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2007, 04:59:14 AM »
Now you're disrespecting trolls. Shame.