Flight times experiment

According to the FAQ, the Earth's circumference is 78,255 miles and it's diameter is 24,900 miles. Also in the FAQ is a rendering of the Earth, showing the sun and the moon above it.

So it got me thinking, if I was to take a flight from Sydney in Australia to Santiago in Chile on a flat earth, it would be a journey of some 20,000 miles, assuming you travel direct. Of course, if you travel direct this means that you travel across the equator twice and for much of the journey you are traveling along the west coast of America (north and south). If you avoid this route, obviously the journey will be even longer.

You can do this flight direct with Quantas, and it takes 16hours, 10 minutes. All this means:

1) The average speed of the flight on a flat Earth would have to be at least 1,200 miles per hour - more than twice the speed of sound.
2) At normal cruising speed (about 567 mph) the range of a Boeing 747 is 8,000 nautical miles. This means that the 747 would have to  be in-flight refueled at least twice at normal speed, and heaven only knows how many times at 1,200 mph.
3) No passenger airliner has ever gone this speed except for Concorde and the Tupolev Tu 144. When Concorde did so, it had to do it when not over land or else the sonic boom would be disturbing to people on the ground. Therefore, a Boeing 747 would have to do it well away from the American coast (thereby lengthening the flight distance even more).
4) All the people that do this flight would notice that they are passing over the equator twice, especially if you took the flight in December.

Point 4 clarification:
When you take off on your flight at 11.10 from Sydney, the sun will be in a certain position, which will quickly disappear behind you and to the left of the plane. As you approach Santiago at 13.20, the sun will quickly appear from the right and front of the plane, since you are in the southern hemisphere for the whole trip.
In the flat earth model, the sun would set to the left side of the plane and rise on the left side of the plane.

Any explanations?

According to the FAQ, the Earth's circumference is 78,255 miles and it's diameter is 24,900 miles. Also in the FAQ is a rendering of the Earth, showing the sun and the moon above it.

I wouldn't take the speculative numbers to heart, cause it's not going to get you anywhere. Which basically means I don't have to sit and crunch numbers to argue your points. I'm sure Tom Bishop will though.

4) All the people that do this flight would notice that they are passing over the equator twice, especially if you took the flight in December.

People will notice passing an invisible line? Must be that sixth sense I've been hearing so much about.

I have ventured in the same direction with several threads and did not receive any reply. I want to congratulate you on the exact numbers you've posted.

I have ventured in the same direction with several threads and did not receive any reply.

That surprises you? Out of the like, 2 or 3 people that actually believe in a Flat Earth on this site...you really think those numbers are accurate and that they are actively trying to confirm them? It's a shame someone isn't trying cause that would be interesting, but since it's not concrete it's a dead end.

WTF are you talking about? What numbers?

WTF are you talking about? What numbers?

The numbers contained within the FAQ. Saying you 'ventured in the same direction' entails that you've tried to argue travel data based on the numbers from the FE FAQ. The fact that they are merely speculative would mean it would be a waste of time to argue them.

In case you hadn't noticed, the diameter of FE is the same as the length of a great circle on a RE (approximately 40,000 km). That means they've calibrated the FE dimensions so that lengths along a meridian are the same in the two models. Unfortunately, since an isometric mapping from a sphere on a plane is impossible, some lengths never are the same. The most extreme discrepancies occur on the southern hemisphere in east-west direction.

In case you hadn't noticed

I hadn't, being that I'm not trying to prove either. That's good information though.

Then STFU.

Then STFU.

I'll be sure to do that once I find what the fuck is.

I'm not sure exactly, but it must have something to do with hoods and fred durst - looking beards. Catch my drift?

According to the FAQ, the Earth's circumference is 78,255 miles and it's diameter is 24,900 miles. Also in the FAQ is a rendering of the Earth, showing the sun and the moon above it.

So it got me thinking, if I was to take a flight from Sydney in Australia to Santiago in Chile on a flat earth, it would be a journey of some 20,000 miles, assuming you travel direct. Of course, if you travel direct this means that you travel across the equator twice and for much of the journey you are traveling along the west coast of America (north and south). If you avoid this route, obviously the journey will be even longer.

You can do this flight direct with Quantas, and it takes 16hours, 10 minutes. All this means:

1) The average speed of the flight on a flat Earth would have to be at least 1,200 miles per hour - more than twice the speed of sound.
2) At normal cruising speed (about 567 mph) the range of a Boeing 747 is 8,000 nautical miles. This means that the 747 would have to  be in-flight refueled at least twice at normal speed, and heaven only knows how many times at 1,200 mph.
3) No passenger airliner has ever gone this speed except for Concorde and the Tupolev Tu 144. When Concorde did so, it had to do it when not over land or else the sonic boom would be disturbing to people on the ground. Therefore, a Boeing 747 would have to do it well away from the American coast (thereby lengthening the flight distance even more).
4) All the people that do this flight would notice that they are passing over the equator twice, especially if you took the flight in December.

Any explanations?

Here is a worked case with real numbers thoroughly referenced to which no FEer ever responded.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 31, 2007, 07:09:56 PM

...
For the rare flight that does occur between the extremities of the earth; along the courses of international flights between points in the Southern Hemisphere exist enormous jet streams located at around 35,000 ft above the surface of the Earth. In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams. By necessity, in relation to the polar front and subtropical jets, easterly jet streams in the Southern Hemisphere propagate at rates even faster than the westward ones. The winds in a jet stream regularly reaches speeds of over 400 km/h. Airliners use these jet streams to faster reach a destination.

This variable contributes significantly to the travel time between Argentina and New Zealand, for example. While an airplane may have a rated cruise speed it can provide under its own power, the extreme winds of the jet stream adds enormously to the actual velocity of the plane over the surface of the Earth.

For every moment the plane stays in the jet stream it is being accelerated until it matches the surrounding velocity and momentum of the air around it. From there the plane can use the limits of its power to travel faster than the jet stream. Thus, seven hours of travel time between Argentina and New Zealand becomes extremely possible.

In general, it has been found that winds are strongest just under the tropopause. If two air masses of different temperatures meet, the resulting pressure difference (which causes winds in FET) is highest along the interface.

These facts are a consequence of the thermal wind relation. The balance of forces on an atmospheric parcel in the vertical direction is primarily between the pressure gradient and the force of gravitation by acceleration is a balance referred to as hydrostatic. In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

Given both hydrostatic and geostrophic balance, the Flat Earth Society derives the thermal wind relation: the vertical derivative of the horizontal wind is proportional to the horizontal temperature gradient. The sense of the relation is such that temperatures decreasing polewards implies that winds develop a larger eastward component as one moves upwards. Therefore, the strong eastward moving jet streams are in part a simple consequence of the fact that the equator is warmer than the poles.

My, oh, my, TomB, you've really got to start making more sense. Any luck on yesterday's questions? No? Any luck on that challenge? No? It looks like you're happy just to be known as the liar.

Now, this has got to be one of the worst post you've ever made. No references. Inconsistencies. Out and out fabrication. Disgusting!

My favorite lie in this one is: "In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams." Any proof? Nope.

How about this knee-slapper: "For every moment the plane stays in the jet stream it is being accelerated until it matches the surrounding velocity and momentum of the air around it."? TomB, when a plane even begins to matche the surrounding velocity (and not momentum, by the way) it stalls and falls.

The jet stream is narrow and doesn't happen to follow the needed courses in all cases. The jet stream only goes in one direction (eastward in the Southern Hemisphere). Furthermore, the speeds in the jet streams diminish greatly at night and in the summer.

Now let's do the math. Let's go from Auckland, New Zealand (AKL) to Santiago, Chile (SCL). There have been 50 such flights from March 15 to May 15, with a average delay of 8 minutes and a travel time of 11.5 hours. Please reference: On Time Stats and Travelocity.
Now the FE distance between the airports is 10,127 miles. Please reference SunSpots.xlsx for the formula. In the next release, I'll be sure to include a sheet with the calculation for you. This means that the average speed for the plane is 870 MPH. Even if we make the outlandish assumption that the plane was in the most intense jet stream ever recorded for the entire trip, we would still need an average speed of 620 MPH. This allows for no time for traffic delays, or gaining and reducing speed. The best speed for the type of equipment (Airbus A340-300) is 553 MPH. Please reference: Aircraft Detail. So, no, it's not possible.

TomB, I will give you one bit of credit. You've made us prove you wrong.

I'm almost prepared to create an FE model to stand up to this because arguing on hypotheticals is getting annoying.

I'm almost prepared to create an FE model to stand up to this because arguing on hypotheticals is getting annoying.

With respect, there are no "hypotheticals" in my post.

People will notice passing an invisible line? Must be that sixth sense I've been hearing so much about.

Maybe I should clarify point 4. When you take off on your flight at 11.10 from Sydney, the sun will be in a certain position, which will quickly disappear behind you and to the left of the plane. As you approach Santiago at 13.20, the sun will quickly appear from the right and front of the plane, since you are in the southern hemisphere for the whole trip (in December).

In the flat earth model, the sun would set to the left side of the plane and rise on the left side of the plane.

No hypothetical conjecture, just simple fact.

As for the rest of what you've said in this thread, I can honestly say I have no idea what you are on about.

Thank you for clarifying.

Clarification for point 4 included in the OP.

Still looking for explanations...

bumpity

bumpity

anyone? anyone?

Why are you bumping?

why are you bumping his bump...it's called spam

why are you bumping his bump

So I could inquire as to his purpose and objective in bumping.

Quote from: Noah Hanson on June 15, 2007, 07:55:03 PM

why are you bumping his bump

So I could inquiry as to his purpose and objective in bumping.

I believe he's trying to get an anwser? After all, the evasion skill of most FE'ers seems to be insanely high when it comes to a good topic.

bondurant use of math and science have destroyed the flat earth theory. Not the first time this has happened by any account. FE'ers stop replying when they can't blame conspiracy or the use of science and math has completely out done them. As happened when i prooved a molten core cannot exist on a flat earth.

bumpity

bump [/glow] [/s] [/s] [/shadow]

Whoa there, wouldn't want this thread to get too close to the bottom of the page.

Can anyone answer this for us? 

Bump. Come on someone has got to answer soon. You know you want to...

Bump. Come on someone has got to answer soon. You know you want to...

Gulliver correctly answers the question by quoting me:

For the rare flight that does occur between the extremities of the earth; along the courses of international flights between points in the Southern Hemisphere exist enormous jet streams located at around 35,000 ft above the surface of the Earth. In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams. By necessity, in relation to the polar front and subtropical jets, easterly jet streams in the Southern Hemisphere propagate at rates even faster than the westward ones. The winds in a jet stream regularly reaches speeds of over 400 km/h. Airliners use these jet streams to faster reach a destination.

This variable contributes significantly to the travel time between Argentina and New Zealand, for example. While an airplane may have a rated cruise speed it can provide under its own power, the extreme winds of the jet stream adds enormously to the actual velocity of the plane over the surface of the Earth.

For every moment the plane stays in the jet stream it is being accelerated until it matches the surrounding velocity and momentum of the air around it. From there the plane can use the limits of its power to travel faster than the jet stream. Thus, seven hours of travel time between Argentina and New Zealand becomes extremely possible.

In general, it has been found that winds are strongest just under the tropopause. If two air masses of different temperatures meet, the resulting pressure difference (which causes winds in FET) is highest along the interface.

These facts are a consequence of the thermal wind relation. The balance of forces on an atmospheric parcel in the vertical direction is primarily between the pressure gradient and the force of gravitation by acceleration is a balance referred to as hydrostatic. In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

Given both hydrostatic and geostrophic balance, the Flat Earth Society derives the thermal wind relation: the vertical derivative of the horizontal wind is proportional to the horizontal temperature gradient. The sense of the relation is such that temperatures decreasing polewards implies that winds develop a larger eastward component as one moves upwards. Therefore, the strong eastward moving jet streams are in part a simple consequence of the fact that the equator is warmer than the poles.