Author Topic: The earth is round  (Read 13741 times)

Offline bibicul

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The earth is round
« on: October 10, 2006, 07:35:46 AM »
Your model is based on too many (debatable) variables to be a strong model (i.e. the pictures depicting a spherical earth are fake, there is a worldwide conspiracy hiding the "truth" from the people, the science behind the round earth model is flawed, nobody went to space, or how about "Antarctica doesn't exist!"). If one of your suppositions is wrong, then your entire model falls to pieces. The best models are based on a few axioms (undeniable facts); yours is not one of those, since it is so debated.

However, there is a plausible explanation (sustained by basic mathematics, gravity, simulation environments, etc) behind every "round earth" theory, including visuals and space missions (deployed rockets are "seen" to leave the atmosphere - just use a strong telescope :) ).

Lastly, we (round earth believers) don't need to convince you that we are right. We represent an overwhelming majority and consequently science models and everyday life are dominated by what we believe. If you wish to make an impact, you need to do a little more than say "you can't convince us" or "we are waiting to be convinced". You can stay unconvinced, but it won't change anything.

Offline Fred

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The earth is round
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2006, 07:54:41 AM »
This is nicely stated, but it is lost on those unwilling to put forth any effort to prove there theory (or more accurately, discover that they are wrong).

Additionally, I have to say that I remain unconvinced that any of them really believe what they are saying. I think they may be goading the rest of us along for their own amusement. If so, I think it's a pretty fun game.
the true measure of maturity is the ability to comprehend the discomfort of another.

Offline dysfunction

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The earth is round
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2006, 08:29:45 AM »
Very well stated, bibicul. A refreshing change from most users' initial posts, which are generally on the order of "ROFL u belive teh earth is flat u r all morons!!!!!"

Fred, you are basically correct, the majority of those professing belief in a flat Earth are actually merely playing Devil's Advocate, and most of them have actually stated such somewhere on this board. However, there are a core few who appear to actually believe.
the cake is a lie

Offline Fred

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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2006, 08:37:03 AM »
Well, if they truly believe, they have yet to produce any real evidence, or make any attempt to verify their position.

I find it odd that this organization has been around for decades, but has not mustered up enough effort to scientifically prove even one of their principles.
the true measure of maturity is the ability to comprehend the discomfort of another.

Offline Unimportant

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The earth is round
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2006, 09:03:44 AM »
You obviously haven't read Rowbotham's experiments.

What have you done lately to prove the earth is round, fred?

Quote
Lastly, we (round earth believers) don't need to convince you that we are right. We represent an overwhelming majority and consequently science models and everyday life are dominated by what we believe.

This is where you are wrong. This is the flat earth society. If this was the round earth society, or even a neutral site, you might be right. But it's not. You've come to our discussion boards, and here the earth is assumed flat. If you want to prove it's not, you've got to do the legwork.

If you have questions about the flat earth model, we'll be happy to address them. But if you're looking for proof, find a mirror.

Offline Kyorisu

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The earth is round
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 09:22:34 AM »
The great part is, nobody actually cares the Earth be Flat or round. It's all relative.

GeoGuy

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The earth is round
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 10:02:15 AM »
Quote from: "Yardstick2006"
Sorry c**tface that wont wash. YOU are the ones saying the earth is flat so YOU have to put up.


THEY may be the ones saying the Earth is flat but YOU are the ones saying they're wrong, so YOU have to put up, I'm afraid.

Offline bibicul

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The earth is round
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2006, 04:18:43 AM »
No, I don't think there is anything wrong with "Lastly, we (round earth believers) don't need to convince you that we are right. We represent an overwhelming majority and consequently science models and everyday life are dominated by what we believe."

Clarification:

My first sentence "we don't need to convince you that we are right" refers to the idea that round earth believers (i.e. the majority) are the ones who should be convinced of flat earth theories, not vice-versa. Here's why (the proof): if we convinced you that the earth was round, nothing would really change and life would follow its course unhindered (for example, I didn't know there were people who thought the earth was flat until yesterday; if they never existed, the only difference is that I wouldn't have posted on this forum. Everything else would've stayed the same. Furthermore, I am not posting to say "you're right" but to contradict you, as most of your website's visitors do). However, if everyone was suddenly convinced that the earth was flat, then everything (from science to everyday life) would change, which is what you guys (should) aim for yet cannot achieve.

To conclude, round earth believers don't need to do anything, we are perfectly fine with the way things are perceived right now. Flat-earth believers are a "resistance" and should act accordingly, not expect to be convinced. THEREFORE "we don't need to convince you that we are right".

My second sentence refers to the idea that most people are round earth believers and that life is dominated by round-earth theories. It's pretty-stright-forward and I don't think I have anything to add here.




In response to Unimportant's "What have you done lately to prove the earth is round?" question: round earth believers don't need to prove the earth is round anymore; Copernicus proposed that already and Galileo proved it a long time ago (no, he didn't just say "prove to me that the earth is flat", he actually took afirmative action and proved to everyone else that he was right; maybe you should do the same?). Today's few flat-earthers represent an insignificant amount of the population for whom basic mathematics, gravity, as well as visuals, are not enough.

To conclude, there is no need for a better model proving that the earth is round since the existing one is believed by an overwhelming majority of the population.

GeoGuy

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The earth is round
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2006, 05:26:36 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"


Clarification:

My first sentence "we don't need to convince you that we are right" refers to the idea that round earth believers (i.e. the majority) are the ones who should be convinced of flat earth theories, not vice-versa. Here's why (the proof): if we convinced you that the earth was round, nothing would really change and life would follow its course unhindered (for example, I didn't know there were people who thought the earth was flat until yesterday; if they never existed, the only difference is that I wouldn't have posted on this forum. Everything else would've stayed the same.  


The FE society does not exist to convince people that Earth is flat, no FE cares what you choose to believe or not believe. So since you have taken it upon yourself to come to the site and accuse them of being wrong you have to demonstrate why this is so.
The burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused. Say, for example, you were to see two people discussing their belief in God, and you walk up to them and say "God doesn't exist." Should the believers, who were not discussing their beliefs for you in the first place, be forced to defend their position? Or should the person who claims that they're wrong have to defend his?

If you want to come to the site and debate the FE theory that's fine, but keep in mind that it is you who have to defend your statements, not the FE's.

Offline bibicul

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The earth is round
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2006, 06:09:40 AM »
Quote
Since you have taken it upon yourself to come to the site and accuse them of being wrong you have to demonstrate why this is so.


I already gave you a very good reason for why your theory is weak in my first post (in short, too many assumptions, no axioms --> weak theory). Read it if you wish and disprove it if you can. So far you haven't done so.

Quote
The FE society does not exist to convince people that Earth is flat, no FE cares what you choose to believe or not believe.


That's too bad. Science is made to be shared and I posted on this website to try and help you figure out the truth. I was hoping you'd do the same. If you don't care to convince me or anyone else for that matter that the earth is flat, then I really don't understand the point of a website. Moreso, I think that you are contradicting your fellows who created this website, whom I believe want to convince others of what they believe in (if not, please explain).

Quote
[...] but keep in mind that it is you who have to defend your statements, not the FE's.


Not only have I done that in my last post, but I have also argued that your theory is wrong in my first one.

GeoGuy

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2006, 07:25:10 AM »
Let's not get off topic here, you said:

Quote from: "bibicul"
Lastly, we (round earth believers) don't need to convince you that we are right. We represent an overwhelming majority and consequently science models and everyday life are dominated by what we believe.


To which I replied:
The fact that you represent the majority in this case does not mean your statements are assumed to be correct. You are the outsider on this site. you have come to this site and accused the FE theory of being wrong, therefore you must show why it is. I never said you have not attempted to do so, I said:
Quote
The burden of proof does not lie with the flat Earthers. It lies with you

Offline Unimportant

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The earth is round
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2006, 07:36:15 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
I already gave you a very good reason for why your theory is weak in my first post (in short, too many assumptions, no axioms --> weak theory).

I could say the same thing of the RE theory, and it would be just as nonspecific and inappropriate.

If there are some specific assumptions of the FE model you would like to discuss, feel free to do so. Saying "The FE theory is flawed because there are too many assumptions" is a meaningless statement unless you prove that your premise - that the FE theory has too many assumptions - is true. It is in that aspect that the burden of proof is on you, the accusor.

Lone Wanderer

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The earth is round
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2006, 07:11:23 PM »
it seems you guys are very strong in your belief that the earth is flat ... you ask for proof that the earth is round from those of us that believe it to be so ... to support a flat earth theory would suggest that a man could not travel the world with the same starting and ending destination by only traveling one direction ... unfortunately this has already been proven to be true ... that a man can travel in one direction and have both the same starting and ending destination ... for example, a man leaves from New York traveling east, if he continues to travel in the same direction heading east then eventually he will return to New York from the west ... the fact that this feat has been accomplished in the past completely negates any such theory of a Flat Earth, because if it were flat a man could not possibly return to the same place he left from and still travel in one direction ... in times past when people did believe in a flat earth things might have been different due to technology being not what it is now ... however, now in the modern age we live in there is absolutely no support ffor a flat earth belief system because of the fact that the flat earth belief system has been disproved leaving no system to believe in because the system is false

Offline holybrain

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The earth is round
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2006, 07:15:52 PM »
Quote from: "Lone Wanderer"
it seems you guys are very strong in your belief that the earth is flat ... you ask for proof that the earth is round from those of us that believe it to be so ... to support a flat earth theory would suggest that a man could not travel the world with the same starting and ending destination by only traveling one direction ... unfortunately this has already been proven to be true ... that a man can travel in one direction and have both the same starting and ending destination ... for example, a man leaves from New York traveling east, if he continues to travel in the same direction heading east then eventually he will return to New York from the west ... the fact that this feat has been accomplished in the past completely negates any such theory of a Flat Earth, because if it were flat a man could not possibly return to the same place he left from and still travel in one direction ... in times past when people did believe in a flat earth things might have been different due to technology being not what it is now ... however, now in the modern age we live in there is absolutely no support ffor a flat earth belief system because of the fact that the flat earth belief system has been disproved leaving no system to believe in because the system is false


In a FE, someone going east would eventually get back to their staarting point. I think it's in the FAQ. Anyway, where's your proof for this?
 believe the Earth is round.
That doesn't mean the Earth is round.

"If you're going to yell at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" --Homer Simpson

Lone Wanderer

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The earth is round
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2006, 08:41:56 PM »
ok you are right ... there is a section discussing this issue in the FAQ

 
Quote
: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the centre or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the centre of the Earth. Therefore, if you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle.


and you ask for proof ... actually for proof you have to check the history on World War 2 ... namely Pearl Harbor ... the Japenese attacked from the west during that battle never once crossing the coninental US or Europe ... however if you take a flight going from New York (opposite side of the country from Pearl Harbor) and go to Japan you fly not west but east over Europe and Asia arriving in Japan ... I don't care about compass readings and directions on a compass changing due to some massive wall of ice or the equator ... I am speaking pure fact based on location of countries

Offline CrimsonKing

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The earth is round
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2006, 08:53:07 PM »
If you understand the model's map, you would understand the east and west are not a problem, the only bad thing happens if you go all the way SOUTH
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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Offline mjk

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The earth is round
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2006, 12:12:10 AM »
Quote from: "Lone Wanderer"
it seems you guys are very strong in your belief that the earth is flat ... you ask for proof that the earth is round from those of us that believe it to be so ... to support a flat earth theory would suggest that a man could not travel the world with the same starting and ending destination by only traveling one direction ... unfortunately this has already been proven to be true ... that a man can travel in one direction and have both the same starting and ending destination ... for example, a man leaves from New York traveling east, if he continues to travel in the same direction heading east then eventually he will return to New York from the west ... the fact that this feat has been accomplished in the past completely negates any such theory of a Flat Earth, because if it were flat a man could not possibly return to the same place he left from and still travel in one direction ... in times past when people did believe in a flat earth things might have been different due to technology being not what it is now ... however, now in the modern age we live in there is absolutely no support ffor a flat earth belief system because of the fact that the flat earth belief system has been disproved leaving no system to believe in because the system is false


n00b.  read the FAQ and look at a proposed map before saying stupid things that have been totally disproven.
quote="diegodraw"]you never mentioned anything about antagonizing naive idiots who have reason to believe they should defend what everyone already knows is logical....Not like anybody would ever have fun doing that, of course[/quote]

Offline bibicul

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The earth is round
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2006, 12:36:19 AM »
(1) To GeoGuy
Quote
Let's not get off topic here, you said:

bibicul wrote:
Lastly, we (round earth believers) don't need to convince you that we are right. We represent an overwhelming majority and consequently science models and everyday life are dominated by what we believe.

To which I replied:
The fact that you represent the majority in this case does not mean your statements are assumed to be correct. You are the outsider on this site. you have come to this site and accused the FE theory of being wrong, therefore you must show why it is. I never said you have not attempted to do so, I said:
Quote:
The burden of proof does not lie with the flat Earthers. It lies with you



I don't understand what you're saying... to "The burden of proof does not lie with the flat Earthers. It lies with you" (your conclusion) I've already replied "Not only have I done that (meaning 'defended my argument') in my last post, but I have also argued that your theory is wrong (meaning 'pointed out/proved imperfections of your theory') in my first one." You are making a circular statement (it's not even an argument).


(2) To Unimportant
Quote
bibicul wrote:
I already gave you a very good reason for why your theory is weak in my first post (in short, too many assumptions, no axioms --> weak theory).  

I could say the same thing of the RE theory, and it would be just as nonspecific and inappropriate.

If there are some specific assumptions of the FE model you would like to discuss, feel free to do so. Saying "The FE theory is flawed because there are too many assumptions" is a meaningless statement unless you prove that your premise - that the FE theory has too many assumptions - is true. It is in that aspect that the burden of proof is on you, the accusor.



Saying that "the FE theory is flawed because it has too many assumptions" is a very strong statement. Let me try to expand on that: when you begin to learn mathematics you are first introduced to a few axioms. Axioms are statements that don't require proof; instead they are conclusions based on probability (none of them are 100% certain, but a 99,9% probability is very strong proof nonetheless - and if that is not enough for someone i.e. if someone doesn't believe in mathematics, then it's impossible/pointless to argue with that person using mathematics). These axioms are rules on which the rest of the information that you learn is based on. Without these axioms the rest of all mathematical theory cannot stand (because all of it is derived from these axioms). If you apply this to other sciences or models you realize that unless you have strong axioms, you have a weak model; a weak model needs to be tested further until you get enough evidence, or else it can be easily refuted. The FE model, based on assumptions, no proof and weak probability, is flawed. You have not disproved this, nor that RE theories are weak as well. Try do at least do one - in order to have an argument. I don't see what you don't understand here...

You lost me with "'The FE theory is flawed because there are too many assumptions' is a meaningless statement unless you prove that your premise is true" because you are asking me to disprove something for which there is no proof (there is no proof that the earth is flat, there are just assumptions) - that's logically impossible. However, there IS evidence that the earth is round (photos, telescopes, science, gravity, Antarctica, space missions, etc). To have a point, you must first disprove the existence of all these things and then move on and create a model of your own.
Just so you understand why you don't have a point, I will make an analogy: what you said is similar to me telling you "You have to prove that eyes are not diamond-shaped". If you answered "You can see that eyes are not diamond-shaped yourself" or "Look at this picture of a human being - it does not have diamond-shaped eyes" or "Let's ask the majority" I could easily reply (using your logic) that it is not strong evidence or that your eye-sight and everyone else's is flawed and it is in fact you (and everyone else) who cannot see the real shape of human eyes. That, my friend, is not an argument. It is called "stubborness".

Lastly, you stated that you could just as easily say that the RE theory is based on too many assumptions and no axioms. Please do that and bring evidence for your statements. I would be VERY curious to read your thoughts.

To conclude, I brought to the debate table a very strong statement - that your theory is based on assumptions, not axioms, and for that reason it is weak. I also proved that round-earth theories are backed up by evidence which you deny out of stubborness. I am still waiting for a strong answer to my first post (the rest of my statements are just defending my argument, so far unchallenged).

Offline meta ridley x

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The earth is round
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2006, 12:56:52 AM »
Even if the earth was flat WHY would it even matter?

Why the heck would the authorities want to hide the fact the earth is flat? Its not like wed all b like omg the earth is flat im gonna go slit my wrists along with half the world! Altho half the world is gonna b emo at the rate theyre appearing.
0\/ @r3 @|| n00b$!

Offline TheEngineer

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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2006, 12:59:56 AM »
Quote from: "bibicul"
I am still waiting for a strong answer to my first post

Rockets are seen leaving the atmosphere because they do.  The FE does not say this is not possible.

Antarctica does exist.


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