Child Murderer or Atheist?

Quote from: Raist on June 30, 2009, 05:48:14 PM

Well then easy question. Our brains generally favor protecting our progeny because they carry on our genes.

That's a purely instinctual emotional response. That would dominate your actions in such a scenario?

No more instinctual than any other decision we make.

Quote from: Raist on June 30, 2009, 07:17:08 PM

No more instinctual than any other decision we make.

Instincts are not necessarily rational. I like to think I make many rational decisions.

what makes a decision rational?

Of course they aren't rational, what makes a decision rational? Something that makes you money? Decision are all based at some level on emotion.

Quote from: Raist on June 30, 2009, 07:46:56 PM

what makes a decision rational?

Independent of desire, according to Plato.

So doing something you don't desire is rational?

That is an impossible decision, in order to decide something you would have to desire that result, even if your desire was to make a decision independent of desire.

Quote from: Raist on July 01, 2009, 12:00:06 PM

So doing something you don't desire is rational?

Doing something you think is logical is rational. As Plato states, desire or appetite is an irrational emotion, and reason, along with spirit, must control it at all times. In order to be mentally healthy, reason must reign supreme, otherwise we will be slaves of our own desires. Kant and Descartes objects this view, although they agree that desire should be controlled and reason should be highly prioritized. The two astronauts in 2001: A Space Odyssey are excellent examples: they show no emotions and they make logical decisions.

Quote from: Raist on July 01, 2009, 12:00:06 PM

That is an impossible decision, in order to decide something you would have to desire that result, even if your desire was to make a decision independent of desire.

Yes, Hume states that without desire, there will be no motivation and reason will be meaningless, and thus "reason ought to be the slave of passion." I don't agree with his quote; I will never put desire above reason for the sake of my rationality. However, I do agree that we are sometimes motivated by our desires. I don't believe desire should be regressed, as it is self-defeating. Desire should be controlled.

Quote from: Raist on June 30, 2009, 07:46:56 PM

Of course they aren't rational, what makes a decision rational? Something that makes you money? Decision are all based at some level on emotion.

Are you finally rejecting free will?

Quote from: Soze on July 01, 2009, 08:19:13 AM

Quote from: Raist on June 30, 2009, 07:46:56 PM

Of course they aren't rational, what makes a decision rational? Something that makes you money? Decision are all based at some level on emotion.

Are you finally rejecting free will?

A simple 'no' would have sufficed. 

I thought the difference between a rational act and an instinctual/emotional act was self evident, even if the root of the act eventually reaches down to a form of satisfaction.

All decisions are logical.

Quote from: Raist on July 02, 2009, 07:51:49 PM

All decisions are logical.

A man's dog fell into a scolding hot pit at Yellow Stone National Park. He knew that the water was hot enough to kill him but he instinctively through himself in to save the dog. The water boiled the skin off his body and liquefied the dog, he was dead very soon after.

He had been instructed earlier and knew just how lethal the water pit was, but he was reacting without thinking. His emotions clouded his judgment and panic took over. He literally threw away his life for nothing, because there was no chance of saving the dog.

It also assumes that preserving one's life is "logical".

Quote from: Proleg on July 03, 2009, 03:34:38 PM

It also assumes that preserving one's life is "logical".

Thank you. That is purely an emotional response. There is no logical reason to stay alive.

Quote from: Soze on July 02, 2009, 05:54:36 PM

I thought the difference between a rational act and an instinctual/emotional act was self evident, even if the root of the act eventually reaches down to a form of satisfaction.

All decisions are logical. Emotion is simply a high level of certain hormones in your brain that may help influence your decision by making you see certain risks as more acceptable, or possibly make you less willing to take risks.

He weighed the risks of jumping in, and in his highly emotional state the risk seemed acceptable, he may even have been willing to die for his faithful pet.

The decision was one of logic, even if it was colored by emotion.

Thoughts?  Would you kill your child if the god you love and worship undeniably appears to you and tells you to kill him/her?  Would refusing show that you do not truly belief in your god and indeed make you an atheist?

Quote from: Raist on July 02, 2009, 07:51:49 PM

Quote from: Soze on July 02, 2009, 05:54:36 PM

I thought the difference between a rational act and an instinctual/emotional act was self evident, even if the root of the act eventually reaches down to a form of satisfaction.

All decisions are logical. Emotion is simply a high level of certain hormones in your brain that may help influence your decision by making you see certain risks as more acceptable, or possibly make you less willing to take risks.

Quote from: Raist on July 03, 2009, 02:55:34 PM

He weighed the risks of jumping in, and in his highly emotional state the risk seemed acceptable, he may even have been willing to die for his faithful pet.

The decision was one of logic, even if it was colored by emotion.

That's beside the point. The distorted perspective that emotion causes is simply different from the perspective of a calm individual. Logic is a means, definitely. However, the more logical choices and the more emotional choices are different.
It's a spectrum of clouded judgment to clear headedness, and that's where I draw a distinction. Every time somebody acts differently than they would have without panicking, that is an example that highlights the balances of emotion versus logic. Don't imply they are the same. Logic serves your universal goals (I'd presume self preservation is often one of them), not pointlessly destructive whims which you regret 10 seconds later.

You can't regret when you're dead.

Quote from: Raist on July 02, 2009, 07:51:49 PM

Quote from: Soze on July 02, 2009, 05:54:36 PM

I thought the difference between a rational act and an instinctual/emotional act was self evident, even if the root of the act eventually reaches down to a form of satisfaction.

All decisions are logical. Emotion is simply a high level of certain hormones in your brain that may help influence your decision by making you see certain risks as more acceptable, or possibly make you less willing to take risks.

Quote from: Raist on July 03, 2009, 02:55:34 PM

He weighed the risks of jumping in, and in his highly emotional state the risk seemed acceptable, he may even have been willing to die for his faithful pet.

The decision was one of logic, even if it was colored by emotion.

That's beside the point. The distorted perspective that emotion causes is simply different from the perspective of a calm individual. Logic is a means, definitely. However, the more logical choices and the more emotional choices are different.
It's a spectrum of clouded judgment to clear headedness, and that's where I draw a distinction. Every time somebody acts differently than they would have without panicking, that is an example that highlights the balances of emotion versus logic. Don't imply they are the same. Logic serves your universal goals (I'd presume self preservation is often one of them), not pointlessly destructive whims which you regret 10 seconds later.

Quote from: BOGWarrior89 on July 03, 2009, 09:27:52 PM

You can't regret when you're dead.

But you can when you're dying.

So now you are claiming something is logical simply because it is a different reaction than if they were emotional?

You've simply been led to believe by pop culture and stupid sci fi films that logic is thought devoid of emotion, when in fact emotions are simply a small change in parameters to the logic formula.

Since nothing is inherently logical or illogical when it comes to decisions, this is completely arbitrary and meaningless.

Logic is confined to statements of fact and reasoning, since no decision can factually be shown to be better than any other, it is impossible to decide what the logical decision is.

Quote from: Soze on July 03, 2009, 09:30:42 PM

But you can when you're dying.

Not really.  You're rather preoccupied in those moments.