Explain THIS flat earthers!

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« on: June 25, 2006, 02:33:26 AM »
I posted most of this a while back, but am reposting it as a new thred, with some additions, because no “flat-earther” was ever able to explain ALL of these.  The most I got was a few bullshit answers about how planetary gravity bends light.  I would like to add that I do believe most of the “flat-earthers” here are just trying to get a rise out of us, but hey, I find "disproving" them is just as fun.

If you think the earth is flat, I challenge you to explain ALL of the following:

*Satellites

*Satellite TV

*GPS systems, which use satellites.

*Satellite radio.

*The fact that anybody can see satellites, when away from the city lights on a clear night.  (Satellites look and move VERY different from airplanes or “shooting stars”)  

*Zero G footage (in space), made by NASA, lasting longer than 25 seconds (the maximum time zero G can be sustained by NASA’s “Vomit Comet”).

*They round appearance of all the planets, which can bee seen by any amateur with a decent telescope. And by “round,” I do not merely mean that they look like circular discs. I mean that features, such as the craters of the moon, are distorted looking near the “edge” as the curve away from view.

*A very large pendulum will appear to change direction, as the earth rotates under it. (This can be seen in science museums all over the world.)

*Satellite imagery, showing a curved earth.

*The fact that maps of the round earth hold true for those piloting / navigating / driving: airplanes, ships, and land vehicles.  If the earth is in any way different, from the way it is currently mapped, (such as the idea that it looks like the UN flag), then distances would differ greatly than they do on the map of the round earth, which they don’t.  The maps that are built off of a round earth accurately depict the distance, and directions of any two points on earth.

*On the subject of distances on maps, I would encourage you try one of these programs:

NASA’s World Wind and Google’s Google Earth.  Both are programs that have the entire spherical earth, mapped, and photographed in 3D.  Google Earth even has a measuring tool.  How could this work properly if the map was being distorted as part of a conspiracy?

*The sheer number of people who work for NASA, the military, airlines, weather services, satellite design and manufacturing, companies that design navigational systems and the companies that support those organizations.

*The fact that modern warships can fire artillery shells so far, they must account for the curvature of the earth when calculating its trajectory. That is, the shell goes over the horizon. This is also true of missiles.  

*Radio’s having a farther range at night, as the radio waves bounce off of the earth’s curved ionosphere: AM radio stations must cut their transmitting power in the evening, to prevent one station from bleeding over to the next. Ham radio operators can take advantage of this effect, and transmit and receive signals to and from other continents.

*The sun is always setting and rising at the same time somewhere on earth.  

*Ocean tides and their relation ship to the moon’s orbit around earth. (This is also evidence of gravity.)

*Why the lit half** of the moon is always the one facing the sun.  Look at the moon during sunset and see for yourself.  During a full moon, the sun will be on the opposite side of the sky from the moon.  This is why lunar eclipses only occur during a full moon: that is when the earth is between the sun and moon.  The reverse is true of a new moon: the sun is always behind the moon, (so the part we can’t see is the lit half**), and this is the only time  a solar eclipses can occur: because the moon is between the earth and sun.  When only half of the visible moon** is lit, it is the half facing the sun.  How is any of this possible if the earth is flat?

**There is no true dark side of the moon. Half the moon is always lit, and which half changes as it orbits around the earth, which it does at the same speed it rotates, so the same side of the moon is always facing us.  The moon budges on this side, due to earth’s gravity.

*The earth’s round shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse, and the moon’s round shadow on earth during a solar eclipse.  

*Only some parts of the earth can see a solar eclipse, when they do occur. (From space, it looks like a round shadow (the moon’s) being cast onto the earth surface.)

*The fact that our model of the solar system (including how the earth orbits the sun), so accurately predicts where the moon, planets, and stars will appear in the sky on any given day,(It also predicts lunar and solar eclipses.) while no such model exists for a flat earth universe.  

*The seasons, and why they are opposite on the different sides of the equator. (January is Australia’s Summer, but North America's Winter.)  

*Why the numbers of hours of daylight are longer or shorter (depending on the time of year) the closer one is to  the earth’s poles.  

*The Northern and Southern hemispheres have different views of the night sky.  Ask any astronomer, and they’ll tell you that the southern hemisphere’s view is better.

*The relative locations of the North Pole, South Pole, and the equator. (All three can’t even exist simultaneously in a flat earth model.)

*Compasses: if the magnetic North and South poles were two points on a flat surface, it would be possible to pass one of them, and be facing both poles at the same time. This means one pole would be closer to you than the other and that you, the north pole, and the south pole, could form a straight line.  Just can’t happen, as shown by compass needles, because magnetic North and South are never in the same direction.

*Any of the round earth arguments here.  Many of which you can try for yourself.





Could it be a conspiracy?

I personally know someone who designs antennas for satellites, and they (satellites) are WAY too expensive to be wasted on a conspiracy.  Think of all the people who would have to be in on a conspiracy like this, and all the money it would take to keep it going:

Astronomers

Astronauts, Cosmonauts, everybody else who has been in outer space, and
everybody working in the organizations and private companies that support them.

The engineers, designers, and manufacturers of satellites, and the engineers, designers, and manufacturers of the rockets that put them up there.

Anyone who has ever been to the north and/or south pole

Pilots  

Anyone involved in weather forecasting (Think how many local weather services there are)

Employees of satellite radio companies.

Employees of satellite TV companies.

Employees of companies that make GPS and other navigational systems.





   
  In short, everyone in America uses, or observes technology that use satellites.
The companies that are involved in such things are a part of our economy, and lord only knows how many people are employees of companies that work with such things, yet no one has come forward claiming to be part of a cover up concerning the shape of the earth.  Also, this conspiracy would have to include every country on earth.  We can’t even have peacefully relations with each other; much less agree to a conspiracy.  What would be the point?

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2006, 03:13:59 AM »
Edit: I rephrase my post.
Here's a contribution to your question list, Xargon.


1. If other planets are flat, how do they rotate?

2. If other planets are flat, why are they always facing Earth?

3. If other planets are NOT flat, but round, how come Earth is flat?

(third time I post these q's. still waiting for an intelligent reply.)
quot;Earth is flat because there is a conspiracy, and there is a conspiracy because the Earth is flat" - Makes sense, duh.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=2955.0

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2006, 03:59:17 AM »
Quote
This means one pole would be closer to you than the other and that you, the north pole, and the south pole, could form a straight line. Just can’t happen, as shown by compass needles

It happens every day, at every point on the Earth.  Draw a line from the north pole to me to the south pole and what do you have?  A straight line.
Quote
*Zero G footage (in space), made by NASA, lasting longer than 25 seconds (the maximum time zero G can be sustained by NASA’s “Vomit Comet”).

Did you ever see Apollo 13?  It was made in the Vomit Comet and is over 2 hours long.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 04:21:17 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
It happens every day, at every point on the Earth.  Draw a line from the north pole to me to the south pole and what do you have?  A straight line.


Yes, but not a line wherein both poles are in the same direction from the observer, without that imaginary line circling the globe.



Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Did you ever see Apollo 13?  It was made in the Vomit Comet and is over 2 hours long.


It’s a 2 hour long movie, not a 2 hour long take. Ever hear of editing?  Multiple drops (about 500) were done for the movie. Watch carefully, and you will see that none of the real zero-G shots are longer than 25 seconds.  Every time the camera cuts away, it’s a different drop.

Excerpt from this link:

Most amazing are the "weightless" sequences achieved through filming on what's indelicately called the "Vomit Comet." This is a NASA aircraft that soars to 30,000 feet then dives...creating 23 seconds of weightlessness. The APOLLO 13 film team did some 500 takes aboard this craft.

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skeggy553

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 05:49:03 AM »
so can anyone explain why some of the larges suspendion bridges in the world have had to take into account the curvature of the earth?

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RenaissanceMan

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 05:53:55 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote
This means one pole would be closer to you than the other and that you, the north pole, and the south pole, could form a straight line. Just can’t happen, as shown by compass needles

It happens every day, at every point on the Earth.  Draw a line from the north pole to me to the south pole and what do you have?  A straight line.
Quote
*Zero G footage (in space), made by NASA, lasting longer than 25 seconds (the maximum time zero G can be sustained by NASA’s “Vomit Comet”).

Did you ever see Apollo 13?  It was made in the Vomit Comet and is over 2 hours long.



What are you talking about? That doesn't work in EITHER model. a round earth map is displayed in mercatur projection, you can't draw a flat line on a globe, and there is no 'south pole' in the flat earth model.

If you're going to argue a position you don't believe in, at least stick to the mythology of that position.

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2006, 10:07:26 AM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

What are you talking about? That doesn't work in EITHER model. a round earth map is displayed in mercatur projection, you can't draw a flat line on a globe, and there is no 'south pole' in the flat earth model.

Imagine this:  You have a globe.  A big one.  You draw a line from the north pole to someplace in the US.  Then you continue the line to the south pole.  What do you have?  A straight line on the surface of the globe.  See, it can be done.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2006, 10:08:47 AM »
Quote from: "Xargon"

It’s a 2 hour long movie, not a 2 hour long take. Ever hear of editing?  Multiple drops (about 500) were done for the movie. Watch carefully, and you will see that none of the real zero-G shots are longer than 25 seconds.  Every time the camera cuts away, it’s a different drop.

My point exactly.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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RenaissanceMan

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2006, 10:27:25 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

What are you talking about? That doesn't work in EITHER model. a round earth map is displayed in mercatur projection, you can't draw a flat line on a globe, and there is no 'south pole' in the flat earth model.

Imagine this:  You have a globe.  A big one.  You draw a line from the north pole to someplace in the US.  Then you continue the line to the south pole.  What do you have?  A straight line on the surface of the globe.  See, it can be done.


Uh huh. The point was if the points were mapped on a FLAT surrface. Go read it again. A flat surface representation of the spherical earth is a mercatur projection map, not a globe.

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2006, 11:18:02 AM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

Uh huh. The point was if the points were mapped on a FLAT surrface. Go read it again. A flat surface representation of the spherical earth is a mercatur projection map, not a globe.

Now imagine this:  You have the FE map.  You draw a line from the north pole to a place in the US.  You then continue this line to the outer edge (the south pole).  What do you have?  A straight line on a flat surface.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Shorty

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 11:20:46 AM »
The Earth is round. End of discussion. If you believe otherwise, you are very, very unintelligent. :)

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2006, 11:29:16 AM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

Uh huh. The point was if the points were mapped on a FLAT surrface. Go read it again. A flat surface representation of the spherical earth is a mercatur projection map, not a globe.

Really, because this is what you said:
Quote
What are you talking about? That doesn't work in EITHER model.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2006, 11:37:05 AM »
Quote from: "Xargon"
[stuff about satellites]


FE'ers do not believe in satellites.  "Satellite" signals are actually signals from radio towers.  On an FE, an orbiting satellite would not be as plausible.

Since FE'ers believe in, well, a flat Earth, then satellites cannot be real if they take pictures of a Round Earth.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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RenaissanceMan

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2006, 11:38:12 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

Uh huh. The point was if the points were mapped on a FLAT surrface. Go read it again. A flat surface representation of the spherical earth is a mercatur projection map, not a globe.

Really, because this is what you said:
Quote
What are you talking about? That doesn't work in EITHER model.


That's right, it doesn't. Either a map of the flat earth or a mercatur projection map of the round earth.

Of course... there IS an exception on the mercatur map... if you find the point at which the projection is centered, that will be a straight line. But for your assertion to be valid, any point on the map must be equally valid.

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2006, 11:41:03 AM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

That's right, it doesn't. Either a map of the flat earth or a mercatur projection map of the round earth.

Of course... there IS an exception on the mercatur map... if you find the point at which the projection is centered, that will be a straight line. But for your assertion to be valid, any point on the map must be equally valid.

Are you arguing just to argue?  I've already explained how it would work using a globe or the FE map.  And yes, every point on a RE lies in a straight line (on a curved surface) with the north and south poles, as does every point on the FE map.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Erasmus

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2006, 11:41:53 AM »
Quote from: "Xargo"
2. If other planets are flat, why are they always facing Earth?


Why shouldn't they?

Quote
3. If other planets are NOT flat, but round, how come Earth is flat?


If this apple is not flat (NB: it's not), then how come this desk is flat?

Because the apple and the desk are not the same object, the geometry of either has no relationship to the geometry of the other.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2006, 11:46:21 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"

Quote
3. If other planets are NOT flat, but round, how come Earth is flat?


If this apple is not flat (NB: it's not), then how come this desk is flat?

Because the apple and the desk are not the same object, the geometry of either has no relationship to the geometry of the other.


I would say that it would be reasonable to believe if the Earth is flat then other celestial bodies would follow suit.  Though there is no relationship between the geometry of the Earth and other celestial bodies, since this is a celestial body, I would assume that other celestial bodies would be similar.

But of course, I said the dreaded "a" word.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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RenaissanceMan

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2006, 11:50:25 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

That's right, it doesn't. Either a map of the flat earth or a mercatur projection map of the round earth.

Of course... there IS an exception on the mercatur map... if you find the point at which the projection is centered, that will be a straight line. But for your assertion to be valid, any point on the map must be equally valid.

Are you arguing just to argue?  I've already explained how it would work using a globe or the FE map.  And yes, every point on a RE lies in a straight line (on a curved surface) with the north and south poles, as does every point on the FE map.


I can't find the south pole on a flat earth map. Help me out here.

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2006, 11:51:13 AM »
The south pole can be any point on the ice wall so long as its directly behind you if you were to face the center of the Earth (north pole)
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Erasmus

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2006, 11:51:56 AM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
I would say that it would be reasonable to believe if the Earth is flat then other celestial bodies would follow suit.  Though there is no relationship between the geometry of the Earth and other celestial bodies, since this is a celestial body, I would assume that other celestial bodies would be similar.


I think you're arguing here from the same standpoint as modern physics takes: "The Earth is not special".

They then go on to tell us how utterly unlikely it is that the Earth, with civilized life on it, would have formed in the first place.

I claim that there's nothing to justify the Earth's not being somehow preferred.  The sun and the moon orbit around an axis centered on the Earth's centre, in a plane directly above the Earth and parallel to the plane in which the Earth lies.  Of all the planets in the solar system, only the Earth seems to have life on it, and certainly on the Earth has intelligent life.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2006, 11:54:36 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
I would say that it would be reasonable to believe if the Earth is flat then other celestial bodies would follow suit.  Though there is no relationship between the geometry of the Earth and other celestial bodies, since this is a celestial body, I would assume that other celestial bodies would be similar.


I think you're arguing here from the same standpoint as modern physics takes: "The Earth is not special".

They then go on to tell us how utterly unlikely it is that the Earth, with civilized life on it, would have formed in the first place.

I claim that there's nothing to justify the Earth's not being somehow preferred.  The sun and the moon orbit around an axis centered on the Earth's centre, in a plane directly above the Earth and parallel to the plane in which the Earth lies.  Of all the planets in the solar system, only the Earth seems to have life on it, and certainly on the Earth has intelligent life.


That is true.  But lately, I'm beginning to debate the "intelligent life" part.

Earth could have been a complete outlier as it were.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2006, 12:08:03 PM »
So many people have pointed out to me that so many heavenly bodies seem to have a round appearance, and they reason from this the earth is round.  The lack of insight common to them all is that they failed to understand that I view the earth as complementary to heaven - not as a body within it, but underneath it.   In that case, stars are bodies within the heavens just as people are bodies on the earth and there are also bodies under the earth where the underworld is located.  

  I do not view everything as existing within heaven.  I view heaven as only the uppermost of three levels of the cosmos.  The earth does not exist within heaven.  It is rather the middle of the three levels which is why it has been referred to as middle earth.

-Dionysios

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2006, 12:20:27 PM »
Earth is flat. Everyone who believes otherwise will be consumed by the devil.
Where is the proof that all this.. Socalled science actually tells the truth?
Let us embrace the true knowledge and destroy this false science.
et us all embrace the will of God.

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TheEngineer

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2006, 12:21:28 PM »
What?!?! Is UJB back?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2006, 12:25:08 PM »
a female member of UJB's cult... scary
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

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Duke

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Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2006, 12:36:53 PM »
Have you ever seen that the Earth is flat? NO! That's something like that kind of logic:

1. I'm from Bulgaria
2. I have never seen Finland
---------------------------------
3. THEREFORE Finland does not exist!

Yes, it doesn't exist cause I have never seen it! Saying that it exist is conspiracy. :lol: ZOMG!
f you can't make it, fake it.

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2006, 12:41:30 PM »
Quote from: "Duke"
Have you ever seen that the Earth is flat? NO! That's something like that kind of logic:

1. I'm from Bulgaria
2. I have never seen Finland
---------------------------------
3. THEREFORE Finland does not exist!

Yes, it doesn't exist cause I have never seen it! Saying that it exist is conspiracy. :lol: ZOMG!


This claim is extremely ignorant and I plead that no one uses it again.  Our logic is collective so that we have a common ground on what reality and existance is.

Unless you can directly determine the existance of something, you may not use generalizations such as that.  That is counterproductive and has been refuted in philosophy.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2006, 12:43:16 PM »
The bible says earth is flat. Non-believers go to hell unfortunatly.
et us all embrace the will of God.

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2006, 12:48:53 PM »
Wrong according to the christian faith, which i can only assume you are a part of, as you are using the bible, you do not have to do shit w/ the bible, only believe that Jesus was Christ and died for your sins, and believe him to be god incarnate, and warship accordingly, sorry about that, learn a religion
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Explain THIS flat earthers!
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2006, 01:06:00 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Xargo"
2. If other planets are flat, why are they always facing Earth?


Why shouldn't they?

Because it makes no sense. They shouldn't because they have no reason. And if you claim that they have a reason, enlighten me with info.

Quote from: "Erasmus"

Quote
3. If other planets are NOT flat, but round, how come Earth is flat?


If this apple is not flat (NB: it's not), then how come this desk is flat?
Because the apple and the desk are not the same object, the geometry of either has no relationship to the geometry of the other.


Bad comparison. A better example would be "If this apple is not flat, then how come another apple is?". But there are no flat apples. All apples are round, as all (other) planets are. All planets follow the same pattern as modern science describe - except earth. Still, makes no sense. Explain.
quot;Earth is flat because there is a conspiracy, and there is a conspiracy because the Earth is flat" - Makes sense, duh.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=2955.0