The sun - Possible experiments

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Earthquakesdontbend

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The sun - Possible experiments
« on: November 22, 2008, 11:20:16 AM »
According to FET, the sun is like a huge spotlight, and dusk and dawn is caused by it either approaching or leaving. In RET, it is caused by the rotation of the globe.

Now, the first experiment would regard the diameter of the sun. Using a good telescope and - this is very, very important - a solar filter, you should be able to see if the sun is actually decreasing in diameter at dusk, and increasing in diameter at dawn. If the sun in fact is, then it would support FET. If the sun is not, then it would disprove the current FET.

The second experiment would regard the "speed" of the sun. Since a day/night cycle is 24 hours long, the sun would have to "go faster" around the equator, or "slower" around the the north/south areas. Again, using a telescope with a solar filter, could prove if this is correct. If the sun is in fact moving faster around the equator, then it would support FET. If it is not, then it would disprove FET.

So, get your telescopes and solar filters ready. This might be a good experiment that can be repeated, unless the telescope manufacturers and solar-filter makers are in on it too...
I was thinking of putting up the "top ten shapes of the earth". I've got Pyramid Earth and Cubic Earth so far...

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 11:45:33 AM »
The FE model has already been torn apart. It just can't illuminate the earth as required.

Nothing's required unless you first assume the Round Earth model as true and then try to model that onto the Flat Earth model, which is an entirely ridiculous exercise. Since the earth is flat it exhibits its own independent daylight times and phenomena.

The burden is on you to prove and demonstrate that the daylight times experienced at various far off and sparsely populated areas of the earth reflect the Round Earth model. You'll have to present some hard data rather than assumptions.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 06:54:46 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 12:52:34 PM »
Quote
Quote
Find out the number for a tourist information centre, or a police station, or a library, or a crack house, or a ChuckECheese in a reasonable number of towns and cities to cover the globe.

Call the people up and ask them if it's day time. Hang up quickly. If you make the calls about the same time every day you should have a fair chance at producing a basic scientific study.

Did you do it?

Nope. The burden is on you to collect your own data. It's your claim. The burden is on you to prove your claim for certain daylight times at certain places. "Prove me wrong" isn't a valid rebuttal. No one needs to prove a negative. The burden is always on the claimant to prove a positive.

So where's the data?

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Snaaaaake

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 04:58:32 PM »
Quote
Quote
Find out the number for a tourist information centre, or a police station, or a library, or a crack house, or a ChuckECheese in a reasonable number of towns and cities to cover the globe.

Call the people up and ask them if it's day time. Hang up quickly. If you make the calls about the same time every day you should have a fair chance at producing a basic scientific study.

Did you do it?

Nope. The burden is on you to collect your own data. It's your claim. The burden is on you to prove your claim for certain daylight times at certain places. "Prove me wrong" isn't a valid rebuttal. No one needs to prove a negative. The burden is always on the claimant to prove a positive.

So where's the data?

Where's your proof the Earth is flat? You've been the one claiming that you know the Earth is flat for the past two years but always ask us for evidence.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 05:53:31 PM »
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Where's your proof the Earth is flat? You've been the one claiming that you know the Earth is flat for the past two years but always ask us for evidence.

So in other words by avoiding the subject instead of presenting your proof I take it that you guys don't really have any data or evidence to back up your claims?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 06:38:01 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 11:49:23 PM »
Nothing's required unless you assume the Round Earth model as true and then try to model that onto the Flat Earth model, which is an entirely ridiculous exercise. Since the earth is flat it exhibits its own independent daylight times and phenomena.

I am curious what the shape of the Earth has to do with what time people see the Sun rise and set, and where in the sky it is when they see it happen.  That is something simple that the FE model has trouble explaining. 

So far the explanations that I have seen are "sky mirrors" and "the southern hemisphere doesn't really have longer days during the summer."  Since no one has been able to explain what a "sky mirror" is, how it would work, and how it would create the light patterns that are required, we can dismiss that one fairly easy.  We also have observations of the length of time of daylight in numerous locations in the southern hemisphere, including the observations of Amundsen and Cook south of 66.5? south latitude (wouldn't want to go with people that could be influenced by the NASA/US Government conspiracy ;)  ), so that is a hard line to accept because it doesn't match observations.

The FE model has trouble trying to explain why the Sun rises from practically due east at the equinox no matter where the observer is located.  Something that is hard to justify with a Sun orbiting at a fairly low altitude (+/- 3000 miles) traveling in an orbit that it completes daily.

This leaves us with trying to find some explanation that matches that observations.  This is what Rowbotham tells us we should do.  Look at something and find an explanation that fits the evidence without coming up with crazy hypothesis.


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The burden is on you to prove and demonstrate that the daylight times experienced at various far off and sparsely populated areas of the earth reflect the Round Earth model. You'll have to present some hard data rather than assumptions.

We have presented our hard data, and I haven't really seen anything that shows that people in the southern hemisphere don't notice what time the Sun rises and sets.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 12:26:25 AM »
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We also have observations of the length of time of daylight in numerous locations in the southern hemisphere, including the observations of Amundsen and Cook south of 66.5? south latitude (wouldn't want to go with people that could be influenced by the NASA/US Government conspiracy ;)  ), so that is a hard line to accept because it doesn't match observations.

Where are those observations? So far you've provided us with a grand total of zero observations of the sun from far off points on earth.

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This leaves us with trying to find some explanation that matches that observations.  This is what Rowbotham tells us we should do.  Look at something and find an explanation that fits the evidence without coming up with crazy hypothesis.

First you need to present the observations and evidence before claiming that you have any.

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We have presented our hard data

Really? Where's your hard data? There definitely isn't any in this thread.

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markjo

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 07:25:12 AM »
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We also have observations of the length of time of daylight in numerous locations in the southern hemisphere, including the observations of Amundsen and Cook south of 66.5? south latitude (wouldn't want to go with people that could be influenced by the NASA/US Government conspiracy ;)  ), so that is a hard line to accept because it doesn't match observations.

Where are those observations? So far you've provided us with a grand total of zero observations of the sun from far off points on earth.

Quote
This leaves us with trying to find some explanation that matches that observations.  This is what Rowbotham tells us we should do.  Look at something and find an explanation that fits the evidence without coming up with crazy hypothesis.

First you need to present the observations and evidence before claiming that you have any.

Quote
We have presented our hard data

Really? Where's your hard data? There definitely isn't any in this thread.

In this thread on the .net site, there are observations from Rig Navigator and from General Gayer.
http://theflatearthsociety.net/forum/index.php?topic=683.0

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Just to quote from the linked page:  Rig's observations for the Autumnal Equinox

"Sunrise Observed: 0645 ZT (1145 GMT)
Azimuth (Bearing): 089.5?"


Gayer's sunset reading:
Quote from: GeneralGayer
The Bloke did it, with a compass so yeah could have got it all wrong. I didn't measure sunrise cos I was stuck at the hospital. My measurement was around 285, my latitude is 61?31'12"N

With a magnetic declination in Finland of about 8.5 degrees so the actual reading would be about 276.5 degrees.

OK Tom, now it's your turn to provide conflicting data.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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PastafarianGuy

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 04:21:22 PM »
Wait, so to make any point we are expected to take our OWN data?  Conduct our own experiments?  I am seeing this more and more often.  If we see some interesting information and results summarized so that it is easy to digest, are we not allowed to link to it and possibly cite from it?

If what you are really asking us to do is provide the data that we obtain, then allow it to be analyzed without being passed off as a conspiracy.  Maybe round earth theory is a conspiracy pushed forward even more in modern times by NASA, and maybe Flat Earth theory is a conspiracy that reestablished from an actual theory that made sense at one point in time.  The point is, accept information based on it's probability and backing by other proven ideas, and do not make a conclusion while you make your hypothesis.

I am more than willing to accept Flat Earth theory if it can be sufficiently supported by neutral observations, but all this talk of "prove that bendy light and dark energy doesn't exist" just goes against logic.

Also, the earth does not look flat to me at all, I see curves, bends, hills and more.  Oceans and other large bodies, on the other hand, have always had some curve to them... why do people say the earth looks flat?  Even lines look curved when viewed by the human eye ;)
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 04:38:37 PM »
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Where's your proof the Earth is flat? You've been the one claiming that you know the Earth is flat for the past two years but always ask us for evidence.

So in other words by avoiding the subject instead of presenting your proof I take it that you guys don't really have any data or evidence to back up your claims?
No.

As has been previously established when data was presented by us REers, the FEers claim that the data is faked and that we are part of the conspiracy. In an attempt to avoid this complication it is therefore necessary for FEers to conduct the experiments themselves so as to avoid any contamination of the data.

It is not that we are lazy, it is that we are trying to introduce procedures that will avoid any problem with conspiracies. As a conspiracy lies at the heart of the FEers model of the world, as REers we acknowledge that according to your world view we can't be trusted not to fake the data.

This means that even if we did the experiment ourselves and gave you the hard data, you still could not accept it. We agree. IF the Earth is Flat and IF there is a conspiracy, the we could conceivably be apart of it. Therefore we can not be the ones that provide the data as coming from us (potential conspirators) the data is potentially contaminated.

The ONLY option then is for you to do the experiments yourselves. That is why we are not providing the data. Not because we are avoiding the question, but because we are trying to avoid contamination of the data.
Everyday household experimentation.

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PastafarianGuy

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 04:43:38 PM »
Also, why even take the time to obtain a degree in some kind of science, obtain funding, conduct an experiment, verify the data, make a conclusion, and then present it to FEers if there is no possibility of them accepting it?  If it is not convincing enough, any uncertainties will be torn apart.  If it is exceptionally sound, it will be passed off as another part to an already huge conspiracy.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2008, 05:50:56 PM »
The data's already out there.

Where is it? I don't see any data.


Quote
In this thread on the .net site, there are observations from Rig Navigator and from General Gayer.
http://theflatearthsociety.net/forum/index.php?topic=683.0

Quote
Just to quote from the linked page:  Rig's observations for the Autumnal Equinox

"Sunrise Observed: 0645 ZT (1145 GMT)
Azimuth (Bearing): 089.5?"


Gayer's sunset reading:
Quote from: GeneralGayer
The Bloke did it, with a compass so yeah could have got it all wrong. I didn't measure sunrise cos I was stuck at the hospital. My measurement was around 285, my latitude is 61?31'12"N

With a magnetic declination in Finland of about 8.5 degrees so the actual reading would be about 276.5 degrees.

Where's the math demonstrating that those observations match up with the Round Earth model?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2008, 05:55:05 PM »
Also, why even take the time to obtain a degree in some kind of science, obtain funding, conduct an experiment, verify the data, make a conclusion, and then present it to FEers if there is no possibility of them accepting it?  If it is not convincing enough, any uncertainties will be torn apart.  If it is exceptionally sound, it will be passed off as another part to an already huge conspiracy.

If you want to make a claim you have to collect and present evidence to back up that claim. The evidence you bring to the table needs to support your model.

So where's the evidence for your claims?

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2008, 06:09:56 PM »
Also, why even take the time to obtain a degree in some kind of science, obtain funding, conduct an experiment, verify the data, make a conclusion, and then present it to FEers if there is no possibility of them accepting it?  If it is not convincing enough, any uncertainties will be torn apart.  If it is exceptionally sound, it will be passed off as another part to an already huge conspiracy.

If you want to make a claim you have to collect and present evidence to back up that claim. The evidence you bring to the table needs to support your model.

So where's the evidence for your claims?
As explained Tom, FEers don't accept REers evidence because you keep claiming it is faked by the conspiracy. The ONLY way to avoid this is if the FEers go out and collect the data themselves.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2008, 06:25:24 PM »
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As explained Tom, FEers don't accept REers evidence because you keep claiming it is faked by the conspiracy. The ONLY way to avoid this is if the FEers go out and collect the data themselves.

I never said anything about a conspiracy in this thread. I just want to see the evidence you guys claim exists.

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 06:41:09 PM »
If there is no conspiracy, then why do devices like GPS give us measurements that describe Geodesics that only fit to a Round Earth is the Earth is not flat? Why do maps of Round Earth exists where as nobody is able to produce a map of a Flat Earth based on measurements that were made that indicate a Round Earth? If someone isn't covering up that the Earth is Flat, why do we all believe that the Earth is Round?

Evidence like Fibre Optic cable distances, Flight paths and times of Aircraft, travel times for boats, the fact that people regularly circumnavigate the globe, or even just the continent of Antarctica, yet none of these report find thine edge of the Earth (or some barrier). There is also the evidence of space flights, if there is no conspiracy then how can you reconcile this with a flat Earth as the photographic evidence states that it is round and the Orbits of the Satellites require that the Earth be Round (or they would go over the edge). There either must be someone faking that the satellites work as they are claimed, or that the Earth really is round.

So either you do claim that there is a conspiracy (even if not specifically in this particular thread), or you have to accept that the data is real and that the Earth is Round.
Everyday household experimentation.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2008, 06:48:27 PM »
So in other words you guys don't really have any data to demonstrate daylight times for various points across the earth and were really just working under the assumption that your model was correct?

I guess that's that then.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 06:51:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2008, 08:20:14 PM »
So in other words you guys don't really have any data to demonstrate daylight times for various points across the earth and were really just working under the assumption that your model was correct?

I guess that's that then.

Tom, there are members of this forum living all over the world.  Why don't you try to coordinate an experiment where members record and post daylight times in their locations.  Presto, data from demonstrating daylight times for various points across the earth.

Instead of whining about the lack of data, why don't you try collecting some for a change.  Or are you afraid that the data will not support your theory?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2008, 08:23:51 PM »
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Tom, there are members of this forum living all over the world.  Why don't you try to coordinate an experiment where members record and post daylight times in their locations.  Presto, data from demonstrating daylight times for various points across the earth.

Instead of whining about the lack of data, why don't you try collecting some for a change.  Or are you afraid that the data will not support your theory?

Why should I need to collect data for your claim?

When you guys say that the sun can't illuminate the earth as required, the burden of proof is on you to show and demonstrate what's required and what reflects reality. No one needs to prove you wrong. It's your claim. You need to prove your own self right.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 08:27:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2008, 08:29:30 PM »
Quote
Tom, there are members of this forum living all over the world.  Why don't you try to coordinate an experiment where members record and post daylight times in their locations.  Presto, data from demonstrating daylight times for various points across the earth.

Instead of whining about the lack of data, why don't you try collecting some for a change.  Or are you afraid that the data will not support your theory?

Why should I need to collect data for your claim?

When you guys say that the sun can't illuminate the earth as required, the burden of proof is on you to show and demonstrate what's required and what reflects reality. It's no one's responsibility to "prove you wrong." You need to prove your own self right.

Tom, what about your claim that the spotlight sun does illuminate the FE as required?  Don't you have a burden of proof for that claim?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tоm Bishоp

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2008, 08:32:36 PM »
Well, it's kind of like a lava lamp...
the earth is flat, hence we can see distant lighthouses, hence the earth is flat

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2008, 08:33:05 PM »
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Tom, what about your claim that the spotlight sun does illuminate the FE as required?  Don't you have a burden of proof for that claim?

I never made any specific claims for daylight times at various parts of the earth.

You guys have. If you guys are going to make specific claims for what is and isn't illuminated and for how long and then complain that it doesn't match the Flat Earth layout, the burden is on you to prove and demonstrate the fundamentals of your claim.

So where's the data?

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markjo

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2008, 08:48:02 PM »
Quote
Tom, what about your claim that the spotlight sun does illuminate the FE as required?  Don't you have a burden of proof for that claim?

I never made any specific claims for daylight times at various parts of the earth.

You guys have. If you guys are going to make specific claims for what is and isn't illuminated and for how long and then complain that it doesn't match the Flat Earth layout, the burden is on you to prove and demonstrate the fundamentals of your claim.

So where's the data?

http://www.daylightmap.com/
http://www.die.net/earth/hemisphere.html
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2008, 08:51:37 PM »
Quote
http://www.daylightmap.com/
http://www.die.net/earth/hemisphere.html

http://www.die.net/earth/how.html

So the only data you guys can manage to present comes from NASA weather satellites?  ???
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 08:53:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2008, 08:52:19 PM »
You can see the ice wall in that map!!!  :o

those daylight maps are made up by REers, isnt that correct Tom?

darn tying!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 08:58:50 PM by sparticus »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 08:55:02 PM »
You can see the ice wall in that map!!!  :o

those daylight maps are made up my REers, isnt that correct Tom?

It comes from NASA, as it says on that page. I guess the only evidence you guys really have is "the government said so."

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Tоm Bishоp

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 08:58:48 PM »
You can see the ice wall in that map!!!  :o

those daylight maps are made up my REers, isnt that correct Tom?

It comes from NASA, as it says on that page. I guess the only evidence you guys really have is "the government said so."

That's worth a lot more than 'Tom Bishop said so'.
the earth is flat, hence we can see distant lighthouses, hence the earth is flat

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 09:30:12 PM »
You can see the ice wall in that map!!!  :o

those daylight maps are made up my REers, isnt that correct Tom?

It comes from NASA, as it says on that page. I guess the only evidence you guys really have is "the government said so."
Which Tom is EXACTLY WHY we are saying that YOU have to collect the data. Because you do not accept the data we give. You told us to post data, we did that and you rejected it. Either you accept that we HAVE posted data (even if you don't agree with it), or you are ignoring REALITY, because in REALITY we HAVE posted the data that YOU requested we do.

The data has been posted so stop trying say that we have not posted the data.

You don't have to agree with the data, but then that is a claim by you and according to your own posts, you have to supply the proof of that claim and so the burden of proof is on you.

We have also give you methods by which you could gather the data to prove your claim that our data was falsified. So we have already done half the work for you, so you can't really complain about us not cooperating now can you...
Everyday household experimentation.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2008, 09:48:03 PM »
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Which Tom is EXACTLY WHY we are saying that YOU have to collect the data. Because you do not accept the data we give. You told us to post data, we did that and you rejected it. Either you accept that we HAVE posted data (even if you don't agree with it), or you are ignoring REALITY, because in REALITY we HAVE posted the data that YOU requested we do.

The data has been posted so stop trying say that we have not posted the data.

You don't have to agree with the data, but then that is a claim by you and according to your own posts, you have to supply the proof of that claim and so the burden of proof is on you.

We have also give you methods by which you could gather the data to prove your claim that our data was falsified. So we have already done half the work for you, so you can't really complain about us not cooperating now can you...

Are you daft? The topic is the shape of the earth. I just wanted some evidence for your claim that daylight data experienced on the earth reflects RE Theory. The best it seems you guys can do is give me some NASA sources as your "proof". The validity of your source is the very thing the premise of this website is questioning.

In a debate on religion, how would it look if I asked for evidence for the existence of God and you gave me some bible scriptures as your evidence?

The line "NASA is right because NASA says they're right" doesn't fly, sorry.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 10:00:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The sun - Possible experiments
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2008, 10:00:10 PM »
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Which Tom is EXACTLY WHY we are saying that YOU have to collect the data. Because you do not accept the data we give. You told us to post data, we did that and you rejected it. Either you accept that we HAVE posted data (even if you don't agree with it), or you are ignoring REALITY, because in REALITY we HAVE posted the data that YOU requested we do.

The data has been posted so stop trying say that we have not posted the data.

You don't have to agree with the data, but then that is a claim by you and according to your own posts, you have to supply the proof of that claim and so the burden of proof is on you.

We have also give you methods by which you could gather the data to prove your claim that our data was falsified. So we have already done half the work for you, so you can't really complain about us not cooperating now can you...

Are you daft? The topic is the shape of the earth. I just wanted some evidence for daylight data experienced on the earth which reflect RE Theory. The best you guys can do is give me some NASA sources as your "proof".

In a debate on religion, how would it look if I asked for evidence for the existence of God and you gave me some bible scriptures as your evidence?

I bet then you'd start screaming and ranting at me to collect evidence to prove that God *doesn't* exist....
LOL

The difference between your "Bible" example and ours is that we give you a valid way for you to check the accuracy of the data yourself.

For a better example using the bible as analogy, it would be as if we quoted bible scriptures and then arranged a personal meeting with God to confirm what was written. If you refused to turn up to the meeting, then it would be your failure, not ours.

We have posted to the NASA sites for the data. This is like quoting the scriptures. We then have given you experiments you can do for yourself that will confirm or debunk this data on the NASA site. This is like the personal meeting with God, as you can have proof that is not reliant on another source otyher than yourself (and if you suspect that you, yourself are part of the conspiracy, then you have a real problem...  ;D).
Everyday household experimentation.