No flightpaths are straight

Smarticus raised the point on the flying to New Zealand thread that no flightpaths are straight.  He's absolutely correct.  Fly from London to New York, you will follow a route that takes you up the length of England, over the eastern corner of Northern Ireland, to Iceland, over the southern tip of Greenland, into Labrador, and then you follow the east coast of America down to New York.

Similarly, a flight from Cape Town, South Africa to Sydney, Australia will follow a course over Antarctica.

And all long-distance air routes are designed along the same circuitous principles.  It makes sense if the earth is spherical -- it works out as being the shortest route across a sphere.  According to FE principles, it makes absolutely no sense at all.  If the continents are arranged in such a way that a circuitous route acros the north Atlantic is the most economical, the Southern Ocean route must be absolutely senseless.  And vice versa.

You can't use logic to dismiss FE. It's more religion and faith than science. When someone says Mohammed is a dog, people turn to faith, not science. Same principle applies here.

And i'm a pilot, and flying great-circle routes (AS WE DO) in the southern hemesphere would be crazy in a FE context. Yet for some reason we still do it...maybe...because...the...world...is...not...flat!

Pilots take the paths that are best on their maps. Their maps are of a round earth. Therefore they take paths that make the most sense for a round earth.


This is not evidence that the earth is round, only that pilots think it is.

You can't use logic to dismiss FE. It's more religion and faith than science. When someone says Mohammed is a dog, people turn to faith, not science. Same principle applies here.

And i'm a pilot, and flying great-circle routes (AS WE DO) in the southern hemesphere would be crazy in a FE context. Yet for some reason we still do it...maybe...because...the...world...is...not...flat!

No, if your map is based on a spherical Earth you won't even consider any other route

This is a flight plan I just grabbed off Google Images as an example, I don't know whether it's accurate but it's just to illustrate a point



And the equivalent FE Flight plan

over such a large distance, there won't really be any sudden changes in direction, just a steady banked flight.

Quote from: yarbsea on October 24, 2007, 08:31:09 AM

You can't use logic to dismiss FE. It's more religion and faith than science. When someone says Mohammed is a dog, people turn to faith, not science. Same principle applies here.

And i'm a pilot, and flying great-circle routes (AS WE DO) in the southern hemesphere would be crazy in a FE context. Yet for some reason we still do it...maybe...because...the...world...is...not...flat!

No, if your map is based on a spherical Earth you won't even consider any other route

This is a flight plan I just grabbed off Google Images as an example, I don't know whether it's accurate but it's just to illustrate a point



And the equivalent FE Flight plan

over such a large distance, there won't really be any sudden changes in direction, just a steady banked flight.

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While you read this, use your brain...

If what you say is true, that to fly the same route depicted in RE, in FE, all you have to do is a nice steady banked flight....then it would mean that we now have a quick proof for RE vs FE. I fly your route, and since I don't fly banked the entire flight it's obviously a RE?

I don't care either way what shape the earth is, but you are proving your argument with a drawing you invented, but then stating something that is contrary to reality (noone flys aroudn banked when they intend to go point-2-point)

PLUS!!!! Your map needs to have all curved lines, straight lines are idiotic. In your crazy FE world, you WOULD draw a straight line, but you mistakenly drew straight lines on a RE map. Again, don't prove things with stuff you invented yourself.

You do realize that when you see a curved line on a map, that it is still flown straight-and-level in the plane? It's called flying great circle routes. If the earth were flat, then the great circle route would make you fly in a bank as you indicate, which it DOESN"T. The only way it makes sense to fly a curved grat circle route is if the earth is round. End of story.

DOESN"T

I will read what you said the moment you correct such a blinding error.

Quote from: yarbsea on October 24, 2007, 12:55:54 PM

DOESN"T

I will read what you said the moment you correct such a blinding error.

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. You guys can't decide if we fly straight or curved flightpaths. I love it when ground-pounders discuss knights of the sky. Idiots. The only thing blinding is your grade-school education.

Quote from: Smarticus on October 24, 2007, 01:02:03 PM

Quote from: yarbsea on October 24, 2007, 12:55:54 PM

DOESN"T

I will read what you said the moment you correct such a blinding error.

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. You guys can't decide if we fly straight or curved flightpaths. I love it when ground-pounders discuss knights of the sky. Idiots. The only thing blinding is your grade-school education.

LOL, did you say "penis"?

I guess we know what's REALLY on your mind.

While you read this, use your brain...

If what you say is true, that to fly the same route depicted in RE, in FE, all you have to do is a nice steady banked flight....then it would mean that we now have a quick proof for RE vs FE. I fly your route, and since I don't fly banked the entire flight it's obviously a RE?

I don't care either way what shape the earth is, but you are proving your argument with a drawing you invented, but then stating something that is contrary to reality (noone flys aroudn banked when they intend to go point-2-point)

PLUS!!!! Your map needs to have all curved lines, straight lines are idiotic. In your crazy FE world, you WOULD draw a straight line, but you mistakenly drew straight lines on a RE map. Again, don't prove things with stuff you invented yourself.

You do realize that when you see a curved line on a map, that it is still flown straight-and-level in the plane? It's called flying great circle routes. If the earth were flat, then the great circle route would make you fly in a bank as you indicate, which it DOESN"T. The only way it makes sense to fly a curved grat circle route is if the earth is round. End of story.

I'm not a FEer btw, I just wanted to see what the flight plan would look like on FE. Stop getting so angry

You do realize that when you see a curved line on a map, that it is still flown straight-and-level in the plane? It's called flying great circle routes. If the earth were flat, then the great circle route would make you fly in a bank as you indicate, which it DOESN"T. The only way it makes sense to fly a curved grat circle route is if the earth is round. End of story

What makes you think that it is possible to notice slight banking on a plane over thousands of miles?

Do you also believe that it is possible to detect one degree of curving when driving across 100 miles of empty Arizona desert?

What makes you think that it is possible to notice slight banking on a plane over thousands of miles?

Do you also believe that it is possible to detect one degree of curving when driving across 100 miles of empty Arizona desert?

Cars aren't equiped with instrumentation capable of registering a one-degree curve.  And the car has a road to guide it.

An airplane, on the hand -- if it follows a one-degree bank over a 5000-mile flight, it ain't landing where it's supposed to!

An airplane, on the hand -- if it follows a one-degree bank over a 5000-mile flight, it ain't landing where it's supposed to!

Too bad your argument doesn't work in reality since planes do not fly blindly across the ocean "marking off to a T" in the general direction of their destination. Aircraft pilots make continual adjustments to their course based on compass readings. Just as you cannot expect to drive your car perfectly down a long stretch of straight highway without turning the wheel, aircraft follow the same basic necessities.

Not to mention that even when flying on an Eastward course on a Round Earth, the pilot is also turning and banking his craft continuously. Consider a man standing 20 feet away from the point of magnetic North on top of a Round Earth. The man would like to travel East continuously. In order to travel East the man would have to continually curve around the point of magnetic North.

Therefore, on a Round Earth we see that the directions of East and West are also curved. Therefore there is no significant difference between models.The pilot banks when following an Eastward course in either model of the earth.

What maps do pilots use? Are they based on FE or RE? How different would these maps be?

What I'm really getting at is, wouldn't pilots have to be in on the conspiracy, since they would have to use the correct FE maps in order to account for the flight time and positions of distant airports?

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An airplane, on the hand -- if it follows a one-degree bank over a 5000-mile flight, it ain't landing where it's supposed to!

Too bad your argument doesn't work in reality since planes do not fly blindly across the ocean "marking off to a T" in the general direction of their destination. Aircraft pilots make continual adjustments to their course based on compass readings. Just as you cannot expect to drive your car perfectly down a long stretch of straight highway without turning the wheel, aircraft follow the same basic necessities.

Not to mention that even when flying on an Eastward course on a Round Earth, the pilot is also turning and banking his craft continuously. Consider a man standing 20 feet away from the point of magnetic North on top of a Round Earth. The man would like to travel East continuously. In order to travel East the man would have to continually curve around the point of magnetic North.

Therefore, on a Round Earth we see that the directions of East and West are also curved. Therefore there is no significant difference between models.The pilot banks when following an Eastward course in either model of the earth.

And in the southern hemisphere?

What I'm really getting at is, wouldn't pilots have to be in on the conspiracy, since they would have to use the correct FE maps in order to account for the flight time and positions of distant airports?

Nope. Pilots find distant airports airports and plan flights based on lines of latitude and longitude. While the maps may be based on RE, those same coordinates take the pilot to the same destination.

And in the southern hemisphere?

Aircraft in both models also curve when traveling eastward in the Southern Hemisphere.

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What I'm really getting at is, wouldn't pilots have to be in on the conspiracy, since they would have to use the correct FE maps in order to account for the flight time and positions of distant airports?

Nope. Pilots find distant airports airports and plan flights based on lines of latitude and longitude. While the maps may be based on RE, those same coordinates take the pilot to the same destination.

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And in the southern hemisphere?

Aircraft in both models also curve when traveling eastward in the Southern Hemisphere.

While travelling in the Southern hemisphere many flights will travel over Antarctica - since it is faster.
Your rebuttal?

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What I'm really getting at is, wouldn't pilots have to be in on the conspiracy, since they would have to use the correct FE maps in order to account for the flight time and positions of distant airports?

Nope. Pilots find distant airports airports and plan flights based on lines of latitude and longitude. While the maps may be based on RE, those same coordinates take the pilot to the same destination.

Now you know very well what I was getting at and you completely evaded it. I said very clearly what I meant. FLIGHT TIMES. That relates to the distances between points, not the spherical/circular coordinates of those points.

Pilots have to know that, in the southern hemisphere, the distance (and therefore flight time) between two lat/long points is much larger than is reported on a RE map.

While travelling in the Southern hemisphere many flights will travel over Antarctica - since it is faster.
Your rebuttal?

That would be a rather imprecise statement. We've checked. There are no international flights which even approach the Antarctic circle.

Now you know very well what I was getting at and you completely evaded it. I said very clearly what I meant. FLIGHT TIMES. That relates to the distances between points, not the spherical/circular coordinates of those points.

Flight times would be difficult to judge, considering that on long international flights pilots use jet streams to faster reach a destination. Along the courses of international flights between points in the Southern Hemisphere exist enormous jet streams located at around 35,000 ft above the surface of the Earth. In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams. By necessity, in relation to the polar front and subtropical jets, easterly jet streams in the Southern Hemisphere propagate at rates even faster than the westward ones. The winds in a jet stream regularly reaches speeds of over 400 mph. Airliners use these jet streams to faster reach a destination.

Here's a reference from Cubanology.com:

"The Jet Stream is an amazing phenomenon of wind current which twirls around our planet, capturing and changing anything in its path. These giant, so-called "river" of winds can be several hundred miles wide, 1 to 2 miles in depth and can be found from as low as 12,000 to as high as 80,000 feet above the surface of the Earth and regularly reach the speeds of 400 miles an hour."

For every moment the plane stays in the jet stream it is being accelerated until it matches the surrounding velocity and momentum of the air around it. From there the plane can use the limits of its power to travel faster than the jet stream.

In general, it has been found that winds are strongest just under the tropopause. If two air masses of different temperatures meet, the resulting pressure difference (which causes winds) is highest along the interface.

These facts are a consequence of the thermal wind relation. The balance of forces on an atmospheric parcel in the vertical direction is primarily between the pressure gradient and the force of gravitation by acceleration is a balance referred to as hydrostatic. In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

Given both hydrostatic and geostrophic balance, the Flat Earth Society derives the thermal wind relation: the vertical derivative of the horizontal wind is proportional to the horizontal temperature gradient. The sense of the relation is such that temperatures decreasing polewards implies that winds develop a larger eastward component as one moves upwards. Therefore, the strong eastward moving jet streams are in part a simple consequence of the fact that the equator is warmer than the poles.

Pilots have to know that, in the southern hemisphere, the distance (and therefore flight time) between two lat/long points is much larger than is reported on a RE map.

Pilots use jet streams on long international flights. So no, they wouldn't.

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Pilots have to know that, in the southern hemisphere, the distance (and therefore flight time) between two lat/long points is much larger than is reported on a RE map.

Pilots use jet streams on long international flights. So no, they wouldn't.

How would jet streams account for thousands  of extra miles?

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Pilots have to know that, in the southern hemisphere, the distance (and therefore flight time) between two lat/long points is much larger than is reported on a RE map.

Pilots use jet streams on long international flights. So no, they wouldn't.

Whoa whoa whoa.

In order for jet streams to account for this, pilots would have to be completely unaware that they're traveling significantly faster. Maybe a jet stream would fool a air speed indicator, but it wouldn't fool GPS. But assuming that you'll tell me that GPS is part of the conspiracy, wouldn't ground based radar disagree with aircraft speeds? Any way you cut it, when all is accounted for there would be noticeable discrepancies between the distances that aircraft are ACTUALLY traveling and what is reported on a RE based map.

In the Southern Hemisphere there are both eastward and westward jet streams.

Please cite the source, thank you.

In the horizontal, the dominant balance outside of the tropics is between the Coriolis effect and the pressure gradient is a balance referred to as geostrophic.

How do you account for the Coriolis effect on a flat earth?

Flight times would be difficult to judge, considering that on long international flights pilots use jet streams to faster reach a destination.

Nonsense.  There's a jet stream above the North Atlantic.  And a flight from London to New York consistently, reliably and predictably takes about seven hours.  The jetstream doesn't affect the flight for more than a few minutes.

You're trying to suggest that jetstreams make it all but impossible to accurately judge the time of any given flight.  You would have a point if we were trying to debate things to the precise minute.  But we're not.  We're talking long-distance flights -- and on a ten-hour flight, who cares if it lands fifteen minutes early?

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. You guys can't decide if we fly straight or curved flightpaths. I love it when ground-pounders discuss knights of the sky. Idiots. The only thing blinding is your grade-school education.

Can't decide? Both RE and FE flight paths are curved, but for different reasons. And these are both obvious; not sure how you missed it.

An airplane, on the hand -- if it follows a one-degree bank over a 5000-mile flight, it ain't landing where it's supposed to!

If the Earth is flat, then yes it is.

Why don't you take a sheet of *flat* paper, and draw a line across it.  Then draw another line from the same starting point that curves very slightly away from the first line that you drew.  Ended up at a different point, did we? 

I'll assume you didn't read the FAQ. Traveling east or west on a flat Earth means that you are traveling in a circle, or a curve, around the North Pole. If I need to travel east to get to my destination, I'll be having to follow a curve in line with my compass to reach it.

Take note of the pictures on the first page for instance.

And if you're banking by one degree in the opposite direction?

That is, if you're flying "east" and therefore making an anti-clockwise circle around the North Pole, and your undetected one-degree bank is clockwise -- you ain't landing where you're supposed to!

And if you're banking by one degree in the opposite direction?

You'd be traveling west, away from your destination. At least for the short term.

That is, if you're flying "east" and therefore making an anti-clockwise circle around the North Pole, and your undetected one-degree bank is clockwise -- you ain't landing where you're supposed to!

I'm confused, if I'm traveling east, why are you suggesting I'm really traveling west? I don't understand.

I think the important idea is that, on a flat earth, flying "east", or more accurately, always flying 90 degrees clockwise of north, would require a continous slight bank. If a plane flew straight and level "east" for a period of time, the compass would steadily read more south.

I think the important idea is that, on a flat earth, flying "east", or more accurately, always flying 90 degrees clockwise of north, would require a continous slight bank. If a plane flew straight and level "east" for a period of time, the compass would steadily read more south.

Yes, it would require a slight bank to stay its course.

And yes, left uncorrected, you'd probably end up pointing south. The problem is that pilots know where they need to go and would never just point themselves away from their destination. They will continually adjust and make sure they travel the direction they need to be heading.

I think the important idea is that, on a flat earth, flying "east", or more accurately, always flying 90 degrees clockwise of north, would require a continous slight bank. If a plane flew straight and level "east" for a period of time, the compass would steadily read more south.

So? If you were on the top of a Round Earth, twenty feet away from the point of magnetic north, your compass would also steadily read more south if you pointed yourself in an easterly direction and walked in a straight and level path for a period of time without correction.