Universal Elevator?

The Universal Accelerator bothers me, the idea that dark matter is pushing up the entire universe is beyond me.  No one really knows what dark matter is, no one really knows if it exists.  It's a fudge factor I say for something we don't know.

Dark matter is thought to be cause the universe to accelerate away from itself (and that acceleration is increasing), but no one knows for sure since no one has found the stuff.

But I won't talk about something I don't know, so I'll come from a different approach.

"..gravity is this mysterious force which permeates the universe" gravity is not a force, force is a consequence of gravity.  It is mysterious in the fact that no one's ever seen it I guess, smelt it nor tasted it; but it is still there believe it or not. 

Gravity (ultra short version) is the bending of space time caused by mass.  Alright since FE doesn't allow for gravity, let's argue what mass does anyways.

(does the moon orbit in FE?  I forgot) anyways forgot about our moon, let's look at moons on other planets.

Assuming the Universal Elevator is there and pushing everything up, why do moons on other planets go in different directions than the "up".  The Universal Elevator is pushing everything up supposedly, so why are moons moving sideways, and sometimes even down?  Why do they orbit planets?  Why don't they just stay still and go along for the ride?

Moon's are falling around planets, which is because mass bends space in 4 dimensions (as far as we know). X,Y,Z and time.  Reject one, reject all four.  Reject gravity then things like time dilation and length contraction don't work.  Keep rejecting the link between mass and gravity and things like particle accelerators, nuclear fusion (the SUN), fission and others don't add up.  The Standard Model is incredibly accurate and relies heavily of the effect mass has on time (space time if you will, which includes gravity).

   

What bothers me is that you include the word "skeptical" in your name and don't even know how to spell it! 

Most of this is answered in many different ways.  I have asked Dogplatter, one of the 'real' FE'ers on this site, to compile his version of the Universe with the Earth being flat.  I suggest you wait until that is posted and see if your concerns are met in it.  In the meantime, you can try to dig through threads in the 2 boards for FE believers.

Also, gravity doesn't cause a force.  A force is only needed if you're looking at the Universe as if it is Euclidean.  Since GR states that this is not the case, the 'force' is not there.


Roundy, he stated in his 'hello' thread that he did that on purpose.

What bothers me is that you include the word "skeptical" in your name and don't even know how to spell it! 

it was spelled that way on purpose, I don't find much of the physics supporting a FE plausible nor even arguable.  RE physics is skeptical, FE physics is sketipical lol

That's stupid! 



 

Also, gravity doesn't cause a force.  A force is only needed if you're looking at the Universe as if it is Euclidean.  Since GR states that this is not the case, the 'force' is not there.


Roundy, he stated in his 'hello' thread that he did that on purpose.

You're right, Gravity doesn't cause a force, it can cause an object with mass to have force by giving it a velocity.  I think that's how I should have worded it.

That's stupid! 



 

lol roundy, now you know what it's like when any piece of scientific data gathered is called part of the conspiracy

That's actually not the case at all.  It's really only government-involved evidence that is called part of the conspiracy.  What's more, many of the more serious FEers on the site don't talk about it much anymore just because of people who try to discredit it.

Other scientific evidence they feel they can explain, or just plain goes unexplained (as, for example, does the mechanism behind matter bending spacetime in physics).  But it's a common misconception on this site that every piece of evidence you have for a round earth is explained away by the conspiracy.  It really generally just gets used to discredit photographic evidence of a round earth (since the vast majority of what we have of that comes from NASA, a government agency, or other space agencies, also government agencies, that are somehow working in accord with the US government).

You're right, Gravity doesn't cause a force, it can cause an object with mass to have force by giving it a velocity.  I think that's how I should have worded it.

We can't feel velocity.

That's actually not the case at all.  It's really only government-involved evidence that is called part of the conspiracy.  What's more, many of the more serious FEers on the site don't talk about it much anymore just because of people who try to discredit it.

Other scientific evidence they feel they can explain, or just plain goes unexplained (as, for example, does the mechanism behind matter bending spacetime in physics).  But it's a common misconception on this site that every piece of evidence you have for a round earth is explained away by the conspiracy.  It really generally just gets used to discredit photographic evidence of a round earth (since the vast majority of what we have of that comes from NASA, a government agency, or other space agencies, also government agencies, that are somehow working in accord with the US government).

alrighty

Well... as long as you understand your error now. 

So I don't get it.  Heard of Occam's Razor?  You know, the simplest explaination is probably right?  Why invent a conspiracy and all these pseudoscientific concepts that have never been observed in order to support a hypothesis that cannot ever be proven?  And what does the government have to gain, anyway?  People debate the smallest points without answering the obvious.

So I don't get it.  Heard of Occam's Razor?  You know, the simplest explaination is probably right?  Why invent a conspiracy and all these pseudoscientific concepts that have never been observed in order to support a hypothesis that cannot ever be proven?  And what does the government have to gain, anyway?  People debate the smallest points without answering the obvious.

Keyword: probably.

The conspiracy needs to be invented to support the idea that the Earth is indeed, flat.

The government doesn't gain anything. The space agencies requesting the money, however, do have something to gain. This thing is known as money.

Answering the obvious? I'm sorry, that made me laugh.

So I don't get it.  Heard of Occam's Razor?  You know, the simplest explaination is probably right?  Why invent a conspiracy and all these pseudoscientific concepts that have never been observed in order to support a hypothesis that cannot ever be proven?  And what does the government have to gain, anyway?  People debate the smallest points without answering the obvious.

Occam hardly sides with a round-earth.

Round-earth: a giant ball of mass the shoots gravitons at everything in the universe causing complicated yet regular elliptical motions which cause further distortion to the forceful patterns causing all sorts of questionable celestial phenomena and terrestrial events such as tides. The center of the earth is really really hot and has currents of hot liquid iron creating intense magnetic fields. The sun is a giant bomb that cannot explode, that moves in a regular pattern around the earth shining its nuclear light, minus the harmful radiation of course, on all the smiling creatures beneath.

Or

The earth is flat.

Quote from: jparenti on August 04, 2007, 01:30:25 AM

So I don't get it.  Heard of Occam's Razor?  You know, the simplest explaination is probably right?  Why invent a conspiracy and all these pseudoscientific concepts that have never been observed in order to support a hypothesis that cannot ever be proven?  And what does the government have to gain, anyway?  People debate the smallest points without answering the obvious.

Occam hardly sides with a round-earth.

Round-earth: a giant ball of mass the shoots gravitons at everything in the universe causing complicated yet regular elliptical motions which cause further distortion to the forceful patterns causing all sorts of questionable celestial phenomena and terrestrial events such as tides. The center of the earth is really really hot and has currents of hot liquid iron creating intense magnetic fields. The sun is a giant bomb that cannot explode, that moves in a regular pattern around the earth shining its nuclear light, minus the harmful radiation of course, on all the smiling creatures beneath.

Or

The earth is flat.

Occam doesn't seem to favor either.  A Flat Earth by this theory requires a giant conspiracy from all the world's nations, weather balloons posing as satellites, a giant ice wall and other.  He's my proposition

The Earth is flat and we're all lying to ourselves to feel smart

Occam hardly sides with a round-earth.

Round-earth: a giant ball of mass the shoots gravitons at everything in the universe causing complicated yet regular elliptical motions which cause further distortion to the forceful patterns causing all sorts of questionable celestial phenomena and terrestrial events such as tides. The center of the earth is really really hot and has currents of hot liquid iron creating intense magnetic fields. The sun is a giant bomb that cannot explode, that moves in a regular pattern around the earth shining its nuclear light, minus the harmful radiation of course, on all the smiling creatures beneath.

Or

The earth is flat.

Occam hardly sides with a flat-earth.

Flat-Earth: a giant plane of mass this always accelerating upward for no apparent reason and due to an unknown and unexplainable force. The magnetic field of this disk is unexplainably irregular and no ones understands how the gas we need to survive manages to stay on the disk. A worldwide conspiracy involving all of the major space organizations stops people from finding out about the disk for no other reason that to simply hide the truth - they spend all of their money wasting resources on satellites and rockets that don't actually do anything or on paying people to doctor photos and to fabricate a constant stream of fake discoveries about our universe. Even though the world is a disk, all of our round-earth-based maps and traveling remain perfectly consistent with a round earth with flights in the southern hemisphere taking the exact same time as significantly shorter flights in the northern hemisphere. Antarctica doesn't exist. All of the money that has been spent on researching the continent was simply to make false evidence and discoveries. Even though several ancient cultures independently decided that the Earth was round before global communication existed, it turns out they were all wrong and eventually, somehow the conspiracy was formed to convince everyone that the Earth was a sphere for no apparent reason.

Or

The earth is round.


You see what I did there? It's called bias. FE requires thousands of assumptions. RE requires practically none - all of modern science either supports or is based on the RE model.

Keyword: probably.

Keyword: moron.

You are a moron. I show you two dice where on each one every side is a 6 except for one side that's a 5. Now, I tell you that when I roll the dice, they probably won't land on double fives. Then I bet you $10,000 that the dice won't land on double fives. So by your absolutely moronic logic, you'll go right ahead and make that bet because the dice will only probably not be double fives. You should go to Vegas, the casinos will love you.

Also, you're even more of an idiot! How? Well I'll tell you! Occam's razor doesn't say that the theory with least assumptions is the one that is "probably right".

Occam's razor states: (This feels like the 20th time I've had to say this)
You should not make assumptions beyond necessity

There is nothing there about correctness or truth. It's dead simple logic. Flat Earth theory requires more assumptions, it requires larger assumptions, it leaves more questions unanswered which means you must assume all kinds of things that haven't been discovered yet. It's not a matter of probability! You can't just say "Well, there's still a chance FE could be right, so I'm going to believe in it". That makes no sense! Why would you every believe in something that requires more hazy speculation, fabrication, and assumption!?

This seems to be the one thing that no conspiracy theorist can understand: just about ANYTHING could be true. What matters is what, logically, makes the most sense to believe.

Quote from: narcberry on August 06, 2007, 09:36:45 AM

Occam hardly sides with a round-earth.

Round-earth: a giant ball of mass the shoots gravitons at everything in the universe causing complicated yet regular elliptical motions which cause further distortion to the forceful patterns causing all sorts of questionable celestial phenomena and terrestrial events such as tides. The center of the earth is really really hot and has currents of hot liquid iron creating intense magnetic fields. The sun is a giant bomb that cannot explode, that moves in a regular pattern around the earth shining its nuclear light, minus the harmful radiation of course, on all the smiling creatures beneath.

Or

The earth is flat.

Occam hardly sides with a flat-earth.

Flat-Earth: a giant plane of mass this always accelerating upward for no apparent reason and due to an unknown and unexplainable force. The magnetic field of this disk is unexplainably irregular and no ones understands how the gas we need to survive manages to stay on the disk. A worldwide conspiracy involving all of the major space organizations stops people from finding out about the disk for no other reason that to simply hide the truth - they spend all of their money wasting resources on satellites and rockets that don't actually do anything or on paying people to doctor photos and to fabricate a constant stream of fake discoveries about our universe. Even though the world is a disk, all of our round-earth-based maps and traveling remain perfectly consistent with a round earth with flights in the southern hemisphere taking the exact same time as significantly shorter flights in the northern hemisphere. Antarctica doesn't exist. All of the money that has been spent on researching the continent was simply to make false evidence and discoveries. Even though several ancient cultures independently decided that the Earth was round before global communication existed, it turns out they were all wrong and eventually, somehow the conspiracy was formed to convince everyone that the Earth was a sphere for no apparent reason.

Or

The earth is round.


You see what I did there? It's called bias. FE requires thousands of assumptions. RE requires practically none - all of modern science either supports or is based on the RE model.

Quote from: divito

Keyword: probably.

Keyword: moron.

You are a moron. I show you two dice where on each one every side is a 6 except for one side that's a 5. Now, I tell you that when I roll the dice, they probably won't land on double fives. Then I bet you $10,000 that the dice won't land on double fives. So by your absolutely moronic logic, you'll go right ahead and make that bet because the dice will only probably not be double fives. You should go to Vegas, the casinos will love you.

Also, you're even more of an idiot! How? Well I'll tell you! Occam's razor doesn't say that the theory with least assumptions is the one that is "probably right".

Occam's razor states: (This feels like the 20th time I've had to say this)
You should not make assumptions beyond necessity

There is nothing there about correctness or truth. It's dead simple logic. Flat Earth theory requires more assumptions, it requires larger assumptions, it leaves more questions unanswered which means you must assume all kinds of things that haven't been discovered yet. It's not a matter of probability! You can't just say "Well, there's still a chance FE could be right, so I'm going to believe in it". That makes no sense! Why would you every believe in something that requires more hazy speculation, fabrication, and assumption!?

This seems to be the one thing that no conspiracy theorist can understand: just about ANYTHING could be true. What matters is what, logically, makes the most sense to believe.

I thought divito was a RE'er.

I thought divito was a RE'er.

I am.

Keyword: moron.

You are a moron. I show you two dice where on each one every side is a 6 except for one side that's a 5. Now, I tell you that when I roll the dice, they probably won't land on double fives. Then I bet you $10,000 that the dice won't land on double fives. So by your absolutely moronic logic, you'll go right ahead and make that bet because the dice will only probably not be double fives. You should go to Vegas, the casinos will love you.

High five for straw man! o/\o

There is a distinct correlation to how much one would wager based on what they think the probability that double fives will come up is. There also comes the notion of using a data set to determine probability. I'm confused how making fun of gamblers helps your point.

Also, you're even more of an idiot! How? Well I'll tell you! Occam's razor doesn't say that the theory with least assumptions is the one that is "probably right".

I didn't say that, jp did. I know very well what Occam's Razor is, and was pointing out the error in using it.

Other than that, I don't believe in the conspiracy or a flat Earth.

He just likes to play the devils advocate to annoy people or simply to hear an argument.

He just likes to play the devils advocate to annoy people or simply to hear an argument.

Not exactly.

Just in case you haven't seen my previous posts explaining my purpose, I'll just paste what I've written in the past:

In relation to the believability of an FE, I'm not naive enough to think it's not possible. There is obviously a wealth of information and supposed evidence against it that's been spoon-fed to us since we were young, so disproving it would be an incredible feat. I will however, digest and entertain the information and theories contained on this forum for the sake of my knowledge. But I do not believe in a flat Earth nor the conspiracy.

And having such a position (one vs. the other) would require a reason and probably an objective. There is very little, I predict, that will happen in the course of my life where I will actually need to choose between whether the Earth is really flat or a sphere. It is of essentially no concern to me, and will not impact my life whether it is one versus the other. For the sake of living the way I do now, and my outright laziness to actually go out and contest every scientific notion, I'd prefer to stay with the RET that gets me through the day.

I'm trying to get people to communicate more accurately, and more literal, so they can make more effective points in the debate. If I can easily tear apart someone's argument and make them angry at me, then I've done what I wanted to do.

Once people can continually argue and debate accurately and effectively, abolishing the ridiculous preconceived notions, biases, and common-sense logic that they have, I'll still be here making people's lives hell until they learn.